I watched all of Crocop's fights in chronological order in the last 2 weeks...

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by supark, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. supark

    supark Guest

    ...and here is what I think:
    A lot of people always asked why Crocop couldn't be as successful in the UFC as he was in Pride. I have my own opinion about this subject now that I watched all of his MMA fights.
    - First of all, yes, Age plays an important role. Crocop had a lot of fights (Both Pride and K-1) under his belt before he ever fought in the UFC. I noticed that he had repeatedly eye problems in UFC fights (Swelling or blinking).

    - What is also a very important point is competition. In Pride Crocop fought a lot of Japanese fighters who were physically smaller than himself and who were not well rounded fighters. Some of them may have had the same weight as him, but not made all out of muscle. And some were simply way below 200 pounds and looked like blown up middleweights or even welterweights. Then some of those Japanese fighters were not well rounded and came e.g. with a Gi into the ring and all they really were good at is Judo, which won't help you that much against Crocop. No disrespect to those Japanese fighters, they all had a big heart and in Pride those matchups happened all the time in which a fighter has a huge size advantage.

    So - if Crocop would have fought guys like Junior dos Santos or Cheick Kongo in Pride, then his record would in my humble opinion look different. And here is my point: in Pride Crocop never fought bigger guys who were well rounded with a few exceptions (Josh Barnett or Aleksander Emelianenko). Prime Crocop in Pride weighed 213 pounds, meaning in the UFC he could have probably fought at Light Heavyweight by cutting 8 pounds.

    In the UFC Crocop weighed around 230 pounds and fights guys who are over 240 pounds of pure muscle while he himself basically was 213 pounds of pure muscle in Pride.
    In his 2nd run in the UFC, Crocop clearly wasn't the same fighter he was in Pride - the Mir fight clearly shows this. In the first run he was in my opinion still close to his prime (although he had a lot of wars in Pride and K 1), but here is my point again: he fought guys like Cheick Kongo and Gonzaga. Now if you look at the guys he fought in Pride, then 90 % of those guys are 1.)- not as well rounded as Kongo and Gonzaga and 2.) not as big as those 2 guys. And I do know that Gonzaga and Kongo themselves are not the most well rounded fighters, but compared to the Pride competition, they are "very well rounded".

    And as for Crocop beating Igor Vovchanchyn: Igor is a legend just like Crocop but then again, he is a pretty small, short and one dimensional striker himself. Meaning if you let Igor fight the same guys Crocop fought in the UFC, in my humble opinion he would lose most of those fights. That doesn't diminish the legacy of guys like Crocop and Igor because they built this sport. I would never say "Joe Louis is a bum because Tyson would beat him". Tyson could only become Tyson because there was a Joe Louis earlier and Joe Louis could only become Joe Louis because there was a Jack Johnson earlier.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2013
  2. PRIDEWASBETTER

    PRIDEWASBETTER Whatever it takes Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Very well put way of saying he fought a lot of Japanese cans...

    You made too many generalizations to have watched the fights one by one. Take notes next time.
     
  3. Phoenix Down

    Phoenix Down Banned Banned

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    And the beat goes on....
     
  4. Jagan Eye

    Jagan Eye Purple Belt

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    Cro Cop was already insinuating he wanted to retire after the Open Weight GP to go out on a win. Then the UFC got in contact with him and the rest is history.
     
  5. Insightfulfan**

    Insightfulfan** Blue Belt

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    Crocop was entertaining the idea of retiring while in the Open weight GP. He said if he did not win.that was it.

    He won, then.the UFC threw crazy money at him and he signed. And kept signing!!
     
  6. Bob Sapp Junior

    Bob Sapp Junior Brown Belt

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    You're right. I wonder why he never fought JDS or Kongo back in 2002?
     
  7. Raul24

    Raul24 Brown Belt

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    i refuse to remember cro cop's run in the ufc
     
  8. Senzo Tanaka

    Senzo Tanaka Silver Belt

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    Different era. It was a time when styles were still distinct and you didn't have "MMA" fighters. Cro Cop crossing over from kickboxing and doing as well as he did was a rare thing.

    He was a great fighter, special for his time and unique. I hate people trying to discredit the guy's career just because he didn't do well in the UFC at the end of his career.

    It's like taking any famous athlete in any other sport and then saying they wouldn't be good if they played with today's players. That's just not fair.
     
  9. DizzyYeahYeah

    DizzyYeahYeah Red Belt

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    Mirko would have evolved with the rest and stepped his JJ and wrestling game up, and would be recommended to fight at LHW. Different eras bud.
     
  10. Bokelj

    Bokelj Trigger central

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    Covert troll job..

    For someone looking at all the fights in chronological order you certainly have no details. You just point out the same shit that all the others trolls pointed out thousands of times.

    Was he the same fighter in the UFC? No. I am still a big fan and feel honored to have watched him fight for 12 years. The man you are discrediting is one of the reasons this sport grew. He was a crowd pleaser, a finisher, I got into MMA because of CC like many on this board
     
  11. OrangeGringo

    OrangeGringo Blue Belt

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    In today's MMA, I wonder if Igor would have fought at 185.
     
  12. jackietreehorn8

    jackietreehorn8 fine

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    So it was a combination of him getting older, and his competition getting bigger & better.

    Makes sense why he didn't have as much success. No need to make much more of it than that.

    Great guy, and excellent fighter in his prime. Reality is reality though, circumstances caught up to him.
     
  13. jackietreehorn8

    jackietreehorn8 fine

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    Why do you read that as simply a post that is "discrediting" him? It's discussing the reality of how his career played out. Cro cop has nothing to be ashamed of, and you shouldn't be ashamed on his behalf. He took some bad losses in his last few years due to aging and a step up in competition. You can still feel honored to have watched him fight every step of the way, he was a warrior and a baddass and exemplifies the sport. Don't take it so personal, I don't think TS meant much if any disrespect toward the guy.
     
  14. Norwegian

    Norwegian Yellow Belt

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    The main problem with CroCop in the UFC is that he had already achieved what he set out to achieve: Win a PRIDE belt. After the Openweight GP, he was satisfied. And why not? He had done something fantastic for any fighter to achieve.

    When he got to the UFC, he didn't have that same intense hunger he had in PRIDE. It was not present. And when we know that CroCop as a fighter tend to struggle somewhat when fighters catch him in his game (perhaps this could be called lack of heart), and then couple this with a lack of hunger, it's not surprising that he lost as many times as he did in the UFC. These things, with getting older, and having injuries, is not a solid recipe for convincing victories against younger and stronger opponents.

    That said, I do feel he got unlucky in a few fights which he should've won or rather could've won. But I am not going to make up excuses for him. I do know that he wasn't the same fighter he was in PRIDE. He had wars in PRIDE and K-1 before the UFC as well.

    I will forever remember him as a legend, and one of the most exciting fighters to have ever set his foot in a ring or a cage, without question. When I see posts by people who insult CroCop and makes him into a joke over and over for whatever stupid reason, I just have to shake my head. It's a pity because these people are insulting fight sport itself by doing this.

    Fighters don't last forever, at one point in time they will lose fights more than they win fights, and eventually they retire. We shouldn't look at the once greats and ridicule them for the fights they lost at the end of their careers - instead we should hail them for what they did before this point.

    Especially fighters like Sakuraba, Igor, CroCop, Fedor, etc.
     
  15. supark

    supark Guest

    I am not sure if you read my whole post. I didn't discredit Crocop at all, more the opposite. And I DID watch all of his fights in chronological order, you can ask me details about fights. I felt the bigger picture is more important than details, but as I said, ask me about any fight and I am sure I still know what happened.
     
  16. marcm2112

    marcm2112 White Belt

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    Mirko is my favorite fighter of all time. No one wanted him to have success in the UFC more than I did. Not making excuses but in his last 3 losses to Schaub, Nelson and Mir he lost in about the last minute in the last round of each of those fights. Not shabby for his age and younger talent. It's a case in any sport. The best players at any particular time will have diminished skills in later years. It's like saying Mike Tyson is better then Ali. Times change and athletes evolve. At the time CroCop ruled the sport he "was" fighting the best there was to offer at that time. No matter how is career went he was considered the best in his Prime beating the top talent of that time. Plain and simple! War Cro Cop! Thanks for the memories.
     
  17. frandie2b

    frandie2b ------(SALD BELT)------

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    Anderson lost against some "small japanese fighters" in Pride and still became the most dominant champion of the UFC history.
     
  18. Winbot

    Winbot Green Belt

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    The difference between crocop in pride and crocop in the UFC is completely obvious. He was about twice as fast in pride than he was in any of his ufc fights. His strikes came faster, his feet moved faster and so did his head.
     
  19. Senzo Tanaka

    Senzo Tanaka Silver Belt

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    The fact is, guys like JDS and Cain DIDN'T exist back when Cro Cop was in his prime. You can make the argument that he fought lesser competition than guys today but how is that fair? The sport was new, people were still learning and he stood out from the pack as a guy that was better than most.

    If you saw Cro Cop at his peak, he was an absolute monster physically, had great killer instinct and was incredibly focused. I have no doubt that if he was an up and comer in 2013, he would be one of the elites. His training would be totally different now than it would be then. He would be training MMA, not kickboxing with some TDD.
     
  20. supark

    supark Guest

    I agree 100 % with what you said. Crocop fought the best of his time and looked great doing so.
     

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