I know I'm late here, but Holloway vs Oliveira 2 makes no sense to me

Gun'n'Run said:
Sometimes a fight doesn't need to last long to see who's better

this was one of those times



Do you legitimately wonder who's the better fighter at this point? You shouldn't. It was pretty damn clear.

They're 23 and 25 years old. They'll almost definitely fight down the line at some point.

The point of this thread is that many fans see a fluky injury finish and automatically want a rematch because 'anything can happen in a fight' and the other guy could have won.

Is it within the realm of possibility that Oliveira would have won? Sure. Was it probable considering how the fight was playing out? Not at all. Do I sit here wondering who would have won? Not at all. Do I need to see a rematch to get closure? Not anytime soon.
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Lol what?

That is one of the dumbest things I've read on here, especially in the context of a one minute fight that ended in an unintentional injury.
 
Forever Young said:
Clearly some mod is breathing down my neck right now so I'm not going to be able to fully express to you how strongly I disagree with you, and for that I am sorry. You deserve better.

Go watch Oliveira's last couple of fights. Do it. Right now. Pay attention to his striking. Focus especially on his downward elbows (the type that come over the top esp. when entering/exiting a clinch) and the knees that he slips in during combos (akin to the heavyweight champion's) Watch him tool Lentz and Stephens on the feet. Then come back here and try to tell, me, honestly, that you saw anything from Holloway in that fateful minute that demonstrated a complete ability to nullify the striking arsenal of Oliveira.
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You need to relax like 8 or 10 full notches. But if you can't, go ahead and unleash -- I couldn't care less about what some random internet name thinks of me lol I would never report you to the mods

PS I've seen all the fights. He's looked like he's among the best fighters in the world against other guys. I literally said those exact words after he tooled Lentz.

But Holloway isn't Lentz or Stephens. He's got a much more modern style than those guys and it's really the style that Oliveira can't handle.
 
tenniswhiz said:
There is no such thing as a Hail Mary Sub.
There are several steps and positions involved with getting a submission, which need to be done against a guy who also knows those steps and positions.

On the other hand, any heavy fisted guy can land a punch in a split second against a more skillful fighter...
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That's because it takes more discipline and skill to consistently outstrike opponents. You said it yourself. Even unskilled guys can potentially pose a threat.
 
Gun'n'Run said:
The logic is pretty simple. Styles make fights. To me it was very clear that the style matchup wasn't going to work out for Oliveira. Holloway had complete control on the feet, and there's nothing about Oliveira's style or skillset that makes me question whether he could figure out Holloway's range and timing and start winning it. He tried his little guard pull shtick and Holloway shut it down.

It was pretty similar to Barao vs Dillashaw in the striking, actually. That style matchup just isn't good for the guy on the losing end of it.


Everyone in this thread is harping on the fight being short. Do you really need to see a guy get tooled for a certain minimum number of minutes before you realize he's outmatched? Maybe sometimes that's the case, but IMO not here. Especially since Oliveira was already slowing down a little bit despite how short the fight was. Holloway never slows down.


Since you're such a logic fan though, maybe you should go back and re-analyze your goofy football analogy because if you want to talk about illogical arguments, there's a prime example right there.
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Styles make fights? That's your counter? That you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Max would win because styles make fights. My analogy may have holes, but it is definitely more logical than your point.

There are too many fights where momentum shifts to be able to say with complete certainty that Max was absolutely going to win. Based off of one minute of action, no less.

Emotional logic is not logic. I get that Max looked better for that one minute. But without the fight going the distance, we can't really know. That's the bottom line. We can assume. We can theorize. But until it happens, it's not certain. That's how logic works. I still think Max wins the rematch. But until it happens, I can't know for certain.

I've watched 20 years of MMA/NHB/vale tudo. I've seen plenty of fights that have had momentum shifts. Where one guy looked great then faded later. Where a counter out of nowhere lands. Where a guy finds his groove in the second round. Where a guy pulls off the Hail Mary submission. I can say that max looked better. But I can't say for certain he was going to win.
 
It's lazy to just say, well he was gonna win anyway because he looked better in one minute. If it were that easy to determine a winner, we wouldn't have three 5 minute rounds. We have those rounds because anything can happen in a fight.

I still think Max would win, but the rematch makes sense. There was no clear winner. The game got rained out. A rematch is in order.
 
I'm still waiting for the Demain Maia/Dong Hyun Kim rematch.
That fight was a fluke.
 
Well since Frankie and Chad are fighting, who could Max fight instead? The options are Hacran Dias, Jeremy Stephens or Nik Lentz if we're talking ranked guys. I'd take the rematch over any of those fights honestly.
 
No way we saw enough. There are plenty of fights with momentum swings.
 
Redhawks100 said:
Please, stop. He looked decent while the fight lasted but did no significant damage. A rematch is in order especially since it shouldn't have even been a win for Holloway to begin with. Should be a NC.
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You had me until here. Holloway's opponent was unable to continue. Holloway should unquestionably be awarded that victory.
 
Rhood said:
I'm still waiting for the Demain Maia/Dong Hyun Kim rematch.
That fight was a fluke.
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I'm on board, interesting match up and very hard to predict how it would play out. Let's see how The Dong fares against Masvidal and maybe Maia could be next. Don't know if Maia would want to wait that long though.
 
Gun'n'Run said:
Sometimes a fight doesn't need to last long to see who's better

this was one of those times



Do you legitimately wonder who's the better fighter at this point? You shouldn't. It was pretty damn clear.

They're 23 and 25 years old. They'll almost definitely fight down the line at some point.

The point of this thread is that many fans see a fluky injury finish and automatically want a rematch because 'anything can happen in a fight' and the other guy could have won.

Is it within the realm of possibility that Oliveira would have won? Sure. Was it probable considering how the fight was playing out? Not at all. Do I sit here wondering who would have won? Not at all. Do I need to see a rematch to get closure? Not anytime soon.
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i think we all know exactly what we knew going in. Oliveira is by far the better grappler, and Holloway is much better at using his range and has more power. There was nothing in that fight that was remotely definitive. i think your just baiting
 
Gun'n'Run said:
I know the ending was anticlimactic but hopefully some of you saw the same thing I saw (i.e. how the fight went): Holloway was tooling him and outpacing him bigtime.


Holloway tooled him completely. Oliveira is a sick fighter but his striking style is pretty flat footed and plodding, only his kicks really have power and he stands totally upright with little in the way of defensive movement.

Holloway is on his toes with great movement, he's much faster, more accurate, hits harder, and is just in general a stylistic nightmare for Oliveira. It really didn't take long to see that.

Oliveira's only chance to win would be a hail mary sub (didn't look like that would happen) or landing one of those big kicks (not even close). As it was, Oliveira was already fading badly when it ended and didn't seem to have a thing to offer Holloway.

So yeah I know the ending sucked but it's not like it was some close fight or some great match we need to see again. Despite the wonky finish, it was entirely clear who the better man is in that matchup. Holloway's win is legit and there's just no need to run it back IMO
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Holy shit man, the fight lasted less than 2 mins. Jesus mma fans are ridiculous sometimes. Nothing happened in that fight, a rematch is more then expected
 
Looking better for two minutes without much really happening doesn't count for much.

IngaVovchanchyn said:
Well if I've learned nothing else from Sherdog this summer, I know for a fact that body shots do not sap a fighter's will to fight.
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And I know that short camps have no adverse impact on cardio.

I'm 100% confident both are equally true.
 
tenniswhiz said:
There is no such thing as a Hail Mary Sub.
There are several steps and positions involved with getting a submission, which need to be done against a guy who also knows those steps and positions.

On the other hand, any heavy fisted guy can land a punch in a split second against a more skillful fighter...
Click to expand...

Your logic is flawed.
 
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