Opinion I don't believe in democracy (yes, I am being serious)

Politicians are people, not just policies. Seems like you missed that point

People didn't care if Hilary = Obama. They didn't like Hilary the person.

Black voters do not like Hilary Clinton.

In continuing to reply you continue to prove my point.

You're stuck on Trump, Hilary, Obama and COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT.
Your vote wouldn't count, you're an idiot.

Anyone who voted Bush jr and then Obama is an idiot and that happened.

McCain and Romney was closer to Bush. So if when deciding between Bush and Kerry you went Bush but then chose Obama over McCain then you don't understand the issues your voting on and the policies of the candidates so your vote shouldn't count and it should be left to grownup how are informed and intelligent enough to understand it. A two party system doesn't help but a test is abolutely the way to go, if you don't understand the issues or how the candidate you vote for stands on them then your vote shouldn't count.
 
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I was toying with the idea of making this thread (and perhaps even posting about it in the War Room), but I don't want get dragged into an argument defending my position. I recognize that 99% of people will not agree, and there are men and woman who fought and died so that I could have the right to vote, so I don't have any allusions that I am going to convince people of my position.

With that being said, I don't believe in democracy, and have never voted. The latter has more to do with ineffectual politicians and a selection of poor candidates, but at my core, I just don't think everybody's opinion is of equal worth. Watching the situation surrounding COVID unfold, and seeing just how ill informed and stupid some people can be (and this refers to both the public and our decision makers), I am left troubled that a person peddling bleach as a solution to the virus, has the same say as a trained epidemiologist.

Overwhelmingly, the people I know vote for emotional or partisan reasons. While I can't say for certain, I would say the majority of voters fall into this category. Quiz people on actual policy positions, or ask them to make informed comments on their preferred parties agendas, and you will get back very little of actual value interms of insight. The same people who complain about shitty infrastructure and access, scream murder when taxes are raised. The same people who want to implement protectionist measures to keep jobs "American/Canadian", don't understand why the cost of living goes up.

I will be the first person to admit that outside of some very specific issues, I don't think I am informed enough to have a say on most issues. Yet, my vote counts just as much on issues that don't affect me, or know anything about. While I suppose the solution to his would be to try and become an informed voter, the challenge is that there is a wealth of misinformation, noise and the average person simply isn't equipped to gather, interpret and discern between credible/uncredible information. A casual glance at Twitter feeds or War Room posts demonstrate just how easy it is to desseminate disinformation and exploit emotional responses. Facts and data don't matter, as long as people can find that one supporting voice that validates their asinine opinion.

While it is not particularly PC to say this, most people are dumb/ignorant, and should not have any sort of bearing on what policies should be. I am not trying to be an intellectual elitist, I include myself in that "dumb/ignorant" category for anything that isn't rooted in my academic or vocational training. As noted above, outside of handful of issues, my opinion is worthless.

To further compound these problems, political leaders are just as dumb. I have had the opportunity to advise the last three federal ministers of the environment on issues, and literally none of them had a background in the environment. Our political systems plays musical chairs with our elected officials, rotating people in and out of "portfolios" as a way to reward or punish members of a party. Does it make sense to you to do a cabinet shuffle, and turn the environment minister into the education minister, and the finance minister into the indigenous affairs minister? (These are Canadian examples, but the same thing happens in America). The answer should be HELL NO, but for whatever reason, that is how we organize our political system, and these are the people we are entrusting to do what's right for the country.

Not everybody is made equal, and not everybody's opinion is equal. In my "ideal" world, we would appoint people based on a meritocracy - people with the skills, training and desire to serve in a particular role, will be the ones who help inform and shape policy in those areas. It boggles my mind that Ben Carson is somehow the secretary of housing, when the guy is a famed neurologist. I don't care what anyone says, that is dumb.

I felt the need to get this off of my chest, as the pandemic has really brought out the stupid in people. The never ending series of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories, finger pointing etc. etc. has further deteriorated my already diminishing belief in elected officials and the public. Reading literally thousands of Twitter users denounce world renowned scientists, but embrace random conspiracies from a Youtube Podcaster makes me wonder whether COVID is nature's way of doing a cull on humanity.

Move to China, North Korea, or Cuba then.
 
Your right, establishing expertise is in part, subjective, and its difficult to achieve consensus among who should represent a particular sector.

However, there has to be some sort of in-between where we seek decision makers who have a background in the area they are responsible for.

I keep on going back to the Ben Carson example, which is perhaps the biggest disconnect between skill, training and experience, and what they are required to oversee. Housing? Your going to use the world famous neurologist and make him responsible for something he has no background in. That makes no sense to me.

While I don't know about America, cabinet positions are used to reward/punish members of Parliament in Canada. If you do well, your given a high profile portfolio like trade or indigenous affairs. If you do badly, your demoted to something obscure.

I would think the people who are best suited for a portfolio, are those who have years of experience in the area....not a game of potical musical chairs annually.

Yeah. I think you are describing a "technocracy".

The issue with that, is a lot of experts disagree with other experts. Experts are not always moral, representative or have common sense.

Have you ever had a misdiagnosis at the doctors? I have, and doctors are apparently experts. lol.
 
Was it Plato that wanted to create a society ruled by the elite and it either never happened or it went to shit. Anyway that's all I have to contribute, this vague factoid I'm not even sure is correct.
 
Yeah. I think you are describing a "technocracy".

The issue with that, is a lot of experts disagree with other experts. Experts are not always moral, representative or have common sense.

Have you ever had a misdiagnosis at the doctors? I have, and doctors are apparently experts. lol.
Not just that, experts can be very easily bought. I wish I was an expert so I could be bought.
 
I don’t either. The common person is too stupid to handle the responsibility. Although we do need some kind of buffer system in place to protect us from flat out monarchy which is what inevitably happens in all ecosystems. A few alphas rise to the top and control all the resources and enforce their will. So we do need some kind of system in place to slow that process down.
 
Was it Plato that wanted to create a society ruled by the elite and it either never happened or it went to shit. Anyway that's all I have to contribute, this vague factoid I'm not even sure is correct.

I for one think I should be in charge.
I would rule with an iron fist.
 
Was it Plato that wanted to create a society ruled by the elite and it either never happened or it went to shit. Anyway that's all I have to contribute, this vague factoid I'm not even sure is correct.
Don’t feel bad. I thought Plato was a kids toy.
 
I was toying with the idea of making this thread (and perhaps even posting about it in the War Room), but I don't want get dragged into an argument defending my position. I recognize that 99% of people will not agree, and there are men and woman who fought and died so that I could have the right to vote, so I don't have any allusions that I am going to convince people of my position.

With that being said, I don't believe in democracy, and have never voted. The latter has more to do with ineffectual politicians and a selection of poor candidates, but at my core, I just don't think everybody's opinion is of equal worth. Watching the situation surrounding COVID unfold, and seeing just how ill informed and stupid some people can be (and this refers to both the public and our decision makers), I am left troubled that a person peddling bleach as a solution to the virus, has the same say as a trained epidemiologist.

Overwhelmingly, the people I know vote for emotional or partisan reasons. While I can't say for certain, I would say the majority of voters fall into this category. Quiz people on actual policy positions, or ask them to make informed comments on their preferred parties agendas, and you will get back very little of actual value interms of insight. The same people who complain about shitty infrastructure and access, scream murder when taxes are raised. The same people who want to implement protectionist measures to keep jobs "American/Canadian", don't understand why the cost of living goes up.

I will be the first person to admit that outside of some very specific issues, I don't think I am informed enough to have a say on most issues. Yet, my vote counts just as much on issues that don't affect me, or know anything about. While I suppose the solution to his would be to try and become an informed voter, the challenge is that there is a wealth of misinformation, noise and the average person simply isn't equipped to gather, interpret and discern between credible/uncredible information. A casual glance at Twitter feeds or War Room posts demonstrate just how easy it is to desseminate disinformation and exploit emotional responses. Facts and data don't matter, as long as people can find that one supporting voice that validates their asinine opinion.

While it is not particularly PC to say this, most people are dumb/ignorant, and should not have any sort of bearing on what policies should be. I am not trying to be an intellectual elitist, I include myself in that "dumb/ignorant" category for anything that isn't rooted in my academic or vocational training. As noted above, outside of handful of issues, my opinion is worthless.

To further compound these problems, political leaders are just as dumb. I have had the opportunity to advise the last three federal ministers of the environment on issues, and literally none of them had a background in the environment. Our political systems plays musical chairs with our elected officials, rotating people in and out of "portfolios" as a way to reward or punish members of a party. Does it make sense to you to do a cabinet shuffle, and turn the environment minister into the education minister, and the finance minister into the indigenous affairs minister? (These are Canadian examples, but the same thing happens in America). The answer should be HELL NO, but for whatever reason, that is how we organize our political system, and these are the people we are entrusting to do what's right for the country.

Not everybody is made equal, and not everybody's opinion is equal. In my "ideal" world, we would appoint people based on a meritocracy - people with the skills, training and desire to serve in a particular role, will be the ones who help inform and shape policy in those areas. It boggles my mind that Ben Carson is somehow the secretary of housing, when the guy is a famed neurologist. I don't care what anyone says, that is dumb.

I felt the need to get this off of my chest, as the pandemic has really brought out the stupid in people. The never ending series of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories, finger pointing etc. etc. has further deteriorated my already diminishing belief in elected officials and the public. Reading literally thousands of Twitter users denounce world renowned scientists, but embrace random conspiracies from a Youtube Podcaster makes me wonder whether COVID is nature's way of doing a cull on humanity.
Counterpoint:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds
 
I agree on some points, but what would be the alternative?
 
I guess some people didn't actually read OP. He has a lot of good points, the main counterargument is that we don't have a much better system. When you stop and think about other methods of selecting officials it isn't usually much better.
About politicians and voting as a whole I don't think formal education in a given subject is the most important when you're talking about these top level posts.
I believe that a mature, smart person can do well in a given situation that he has no formal training because he will be able to count on professionals for the technical aspects of his job.
For example, a Health minister doesn't actually need to know much about Medicine to deal with the coronavirus crisis. He will not be actually dealing with any patients and he will have MDs to advise him, he needs to know how to coordinate doctors, nurses, governors, mayors, suppliers and so on in acting in concert. There's hardly any college course for that. It takes years of experience dealing with public affairs, a great deal of intelligence, seriousness and flexibility.
For that reason I do not believe we shouldn't be able to vote or run for a position that is outside of our realm of expertise.
 
I was toying with the idea of making this thread (and perhaps even posting about it in the War Room), but I don't want get dragged into an argument defending my position. I recognize that 99% of people will not agree, and there are men and woman who fought and died so that I could have the right to vote, so I don't have any allusions that I am going to convince people of my position.

With that being said, I don't believe in democracy, and have never voted. The latter has more to do with ineffectual politicians and a selection of poor candidates, but at my core, I just don't think everybody's opinion is of equal worth. Watching the situation surrounding COVID unfold, and seeing just how ill informed and stupid some people can be (and this refers to both the public and our decision makers), I am left troubled that a person peddling bleach as a solution to the virus, has the same say as a trained epidemiologist.

Overwhelmingly, the people I know vote for emotional or partisan reasons. While I can't say for certain, I would say the majority of voters fall into this category. Quiz people on actual policy positions, or ask them to make informed comments on their preferred parties agendas, and you will get back very little of actual value interms of insight. The same people who complain about shitty infrastructure and access, scream murder when taxes are raised. The same people who want to implement protectionist measures to keep jobs "American/Canadian", don't understand why the cost of living goes up.

I will be the first person to admit that outside of some very specific issues, I don't think I am informed enough to have a say on most issues. Yet, my vote counts just as much on issues that don't affect me, or know anything about. While I suppose the solution to his would be to try and become an informed voter, the challenge is that there is a wealth of misinformation, noise and the average person simply isn't equipped to gather, interpret and discern between credible/uncredible information. A casual glance at Twitter feeds or War Room posts demonstrate just how easy it is to desseminate disinformation and exploit emotional responses. Facts and data don't matter, as long as people can find that one supporting voice that validates their asinine opinion.

While it is not particularly PC to say this, most people are dumb/ignorant, and should not have any sort of bearing on what policies should be. I am not trying to be an intellectual elitist, I include myself in that "dumb/ignorant" category for anything that isn't rooted in my academic or vocational training. As noted above, outside of handful of issues, my opinion is worthless.

To further compound these problems, political leaders are just as dumb. I have had the opportunity to advise the last three federal ministers of the environment on issues, and literally none of them had a background in the environment. Our political systems plays musical chairs with our elected officials, rotating people in and out of "portfolios" as a way to reward or punish members of a party. Does it make sense to you to do a cabinet shuffle, and turn the environment minister into the education minister, and the finance minister into the indigenous affairs minister? (These are Canadian examples, but the same thing happens in America). The answer should be HELL NO, but for whatever reason, that is how we organize our political system, and these are the people we are entrusting to do what's right for the country.

Not everybody is made equal, and not everybody's opinion is equal. In my "ideal" world, we would appoint people based on a meritocracy - people with the skills, training and desire to serve in a particular role, will be the ones who help inform and shape policy in those areas. It boggles my mind that Ben Carson is somehow the secretary of housing, when the guy is a famed neurologist. I don't care what anyone says, that is dumb.

I felt the need to get this off of my chest, as the pandemic has really brought out the stupid in people. The never ending series of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories, finger pointing etc. etc. has further deteriorated my already diminishing belief in elected officials and the public. Reading literally thousands of Twitter users denounce world renowned scientists, but embrace random conspiracies from a Youtube Podcaster makes me wonder whether COVID is nature's way of doing a cull on humanity.

Lol, could have written this... and I don’t vote either for the same reasons

But in the end you need people to run the country and although a good, fair and smart dictator would be the best, they seem to hard to find.

In order to get better elections I would do a lottery where the country selects let’s say 10k people. These people get educated on various topics intensively. Then they hear the different stances from the politicians (who indeed need to have relevant experience). After all this these 10k people each vote and those votes count for the whole country.
 
TS is a Democrat and a Berniebot:
Good: I'm glad people are finally recognizing Clinton for the phony that she is.

I'm a democrat, and I would vote for the Republican ticket if Clinton won the nomination (hypothetically, as I'm Canadian). She is a career politician and possibly the most disingenuous candidate running. She claims to be a champion of the poor and marginalied, but she demands hundreds of thousands of dollars from public universities for speaking engagements. What has she ever done to actually advance the causes of woman or minorities in America (beyond being a talking head).

The Sandman has a long history of being a civil rights activist and is proposing the types of changes that are needed in America. Will he bankrupt the country trying to achieve it? Probably, but all politicians are going to squander money and rob you blind, at least Sanders will try and make the country a better place in the process.

He isn't my ideal candidate by any stretch, but out of names being banded about as potential candidates, he would be my top choice.

My heart is with Bernie Sanders, but his plan was too ambitious to be practical or viable.
The anti-socialists in here like myself have been informing you guys on the unambiguous history of these socialists and their tendencies.

This isn't an accident. This isn't coincidence. This is inherent to the arrogance of socialists; people who are so inexorably overconfident in their ideas that would fix all the world's problems....with other people's money, of course. Naturally, this always starts with fixing their own financial shortcomings.

Pay attention before it's too late.
 
I dont believe in toilet paper do you?
 
I don’t want to make this into a Trump thread and please know that you have these morons on both sides of the fences. But how can anybody in their right mind be in favor of letting these people vote..



for example look at one of the last discussions. The trump supporter insists that everybody should read the transcript of trumps call to make an informed decision, yet he confirms 5 times he hasn’t read it (but people should!!!)

Looks like comedy, if it wasn’t such a serous matter
 
I was toying with the idea of making this thread (and perhaps even posting about it in the War Room), but I don't want get dragged into an argument defending my position. I recognize that 99% of people will not agree, and there are men and woman who fought and died so that I could have the right to vote, so I don't have any allusions that I am going to convince people of my position.

With that being said, I don't believe in democracy, and have never voted. The latter has more to do with ineffectual politicians and a selection of poor candidates, but at my core, I just don't think everybody's opinion is of equal worth. Watching the situation surrounding COVID unfold, and seeing just how ill informed and stupid some people can be (and this refers to both the public and our decision makers), I am left troubled that a person peddling bleach as a solution to the virus, has the same say as a trained epidemiologist.

Overwhelmingly, the people I know vote for emotional or partisan reasons. While I can't say for certain, I would say the majority of voters fall into this category. Quiz people on actual policy positions, or ask them to make informed comments on their preferred parties agendas, and you will get back very little of actual value interms of insight. The same people who complain about shitty infrastructure and access, scream murder when taxes are raised. The same people who want to implement protectionist measures to keep jobs "American/Canadian", don't understand why the cost of living goes up.

I will be the first person to admit that outside of some very specific issues, I don't think I am informed enough to have a say on most issues. Yet, my vote counts just as much on issues that don't affect me, or know anything about. While I suppose the solution to his would be to try and become an informed voter, the challenge is that there is a wealth of misinformation, noise and the average person simply isn't equipped to gather, interpret and discern between credible/uncredible information. A casual glance at Twitter feeds or War Room posts demonstrate just how easy it is to desseminate disinformation and exploit emotional responses. Facts and data don't matter, as long as people can find that one supporting voice that validates their asinine opinion.

While it is not particularly PC to say this, most people are dumb/ignorant, and should not have any sort of bearing on what policies should be. I am not trying to be an intellectual elitist, I include myself in that "dumb/ignorant" category for anything that isn't rooted in my academic or vocational training. As noted above, outside of handful of issues, my opinion is worthless.

To further compound these problems, political leaders are just as dumb. I have had the opportunity to advise the last three federal ministers of the environment on issues, and literally none of them had a background in the environment. Our political systems plays musical chairs with our elected officials, rotating people in and out of "portfolios" as a way to reward or punish members of a party. Does it make sense to you to do a cabinet shuffle, and turn the environment minister into the education minister, and the finance minister into the indigenous affairs minister? (These are Canadian examples, but the same thing happens in America). The answer should be HELL NO, but for whatever reason, that is how we organize our political system, and these are the people we are entrusting to do what's right for the country.

Not everybody is made equal, and not everybody's opinion is equal. In my "ideal" world, we would appoint people based on a meritocracy - people with the skills, training and desire to serve in a particular role, will be the ones who help inform and shape policy in those areas. It boggles my mind that Ben Carson is somehow the secretary of housing, when the guy is a famed neurologist. I don't care what anyone says, that is dumb.

I felt the need to get this off of my chest, as the pandemic has really brought out the stupid in people. The never ending series of lies, misinformation, conspiracy theories, finger pointing etc. etc. has further deteriorated my already diminishing belief in elected officials and the public. Reading literally thousands of Twitter users denounce world renowned scientists, but embrace random conspiracies from a Youtube Podcaster makes me wonder whether COVID is nature's way of doing a cull on humanity.
I think the most interesting part of this is the fact that nobody really knows enough to run a country, but we still need some sort of hierarchical power structure and a state monopoly on violence. The immediate problem with anything that isn't democratic is that it consolidates too much power in the executive branch, which is a nightmare. I've also never heard of a political system that can do any better than democracy to deal with the fact that individuals are not wise or educated enough to know and do everything.

Does that leave us in a situation where the best we can do is generally trust the experts, discourage popular cynicism, and encourage education?

There is also the idea that a country is really big and individual bad thinking over choices is averaged out into something workable. So, the voter may be an idiot, but the lone voter doesn't have much control or many choices, so the things or people who get onto the ballot are an averaged, approximate set of reasonable choices produced by a system that incentivizes expertise, and the possible outcomes are somewhat reasonable rather than barbaric. Maybe something to consider, even though that's a slow and painful process. There probably isn't a better alternative right now.

And look at the progress. It's very slow, but i don't think we can deny it.
 
TS is a Democrat and a Berniebot:

I am left leaning, but im not sure what your post has to do with me not believing in democracy.

I didn't say that I don't have ideological leanings, I said I have never voted because I don't believe in the system.
 
I think the constitutional-republic system of the USA is a pretty decent system.

The US constitution and bill of rights are among the most important documents ever written.
 
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