i didn't realize..shogun is 5-5 in the ufc

Krouget said:
In reading the thread, I believe there is some inconsistency in your logic.

If you're going isolate Rua's career to the UFC as a topic of discussion, then you can't also make the argument that he's overrated-- to overrate him, you'd have to include his pre-UFC performance, which serves as a basis for even making such a judgement. In the absence of hindsight, you'd have no real measure for his potential.

So logically speaking, either he's overrated, because you recognize his accomplishments in Pride, or he's on record as being a 5-5 former champion in the UFC, which would include notable wins and a few respectable losses, all culminating in what has become a marketable fighter (which is another way we could judge his success).

And with all respect to the actual fighter, I think multiple threads like this, in my years of lurking on Sherdog, highlight the fact that a mere 5-5 record really is just a number. I'd only be robbing myself of some excellent MMA history, if I were to ever look back on him as a fighter, and gloss over his performances, because of it.


I think Machida/Shogun 1 was a close fight, but I don't believe it was a tossup. That said, the 2nd fight was immediately granted for just this reason, and it proved the more decisive winner.


Doing a lot of damage won Hendo the rounds, but Rua also produced enough offense to warrant 10-9 rounds, in those that he dropped.

But one point of note; earlier in the same night, Bonnar fought Kingsbury and was able to win as many as two 10-8 rounds on one judges card, for doing as much or less than Rua did in the final round of his fight, also including his opponents activity*. However, Rua, having moved to full mount multiple times and landing numerous unanswered punches, only received a 10-9. Personally, I don't believe Hendo produced enough offense to warrant this, and if that was an honest 10-9 round, then what qualifies a 10-8?

From an extroverted point of view, if any casual fan were to watch only the 5th round between the two, they would have to call it a rather dominant round for Rua-- certainly an exhausting tedious one, but clearly one in which one man was dominant over the other. References to any other rounds should not exist, as that's how fights should be judged-- on a round by round basis. Taking this into account, I believe it should have been a 47-47 draw.

* http://www.stiffjab.com/post/13041705181/stephan-bonnar-vs-kyle-kingsbury


Henderson already has a cemented legacy and lost absolutely no respect in that (or any) encounter. He's long had the respect he deserves, because he's earned it. Citing that he was 40 and exhausted, shouldn't be used to minimize Rua's efforts, just the same. They are both professionals who showed up to put on an awesome fight, and likely have more respect for each other, than some people in this thread are giving them.

Hat's off to them both. Nobody lost stock in that fight.
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Great 1st post.

Too many people are just hung up on the W/L thing.

When you look at things in just a black and white way it skews things.

There is no way that Shogun's "loss" to Machida equals his loss to Jones.

The overwhelming majority believe that Shogun deserved the win against Machida yet it is count against him as a negative the same way his loss to Jon Jones was.


The 1st Machida fight should be counted as positive towards Shogun and most logical MMA fans know that he deserved the nod.

When you just look at a W/L column things like this are lost.


Also, whether you an MMA fan scored Henderson-Shogun 48-48 or 48-47 (for Henderson) this back and forth war should not simply be looked at as a negative. It was a close fight with 2 legends trading back and forth.

This shouldn't be looked at the same way as Shogun-Jones either.
 
it's funny how people can say things like "not elite" as though the sport didn't exists until they started watching it.
 
buffpants22 said:
Healthy Shogun is 106-0

once leg kicking Cro-cop and Fedor into wheelchairs for a few months.
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No one is saying that. They are saying that you shouldn't just look at a record. It doesn't tell the whole story.

A W/L column counts Jones-Shogun the same as Machida-Shogun 1.

Shogun got destroyed by Jones but any MMA fan that is not a Shogun hater should be able to see that Shogun beat Machida in the 1st fight. It was a bad decision yet haters are trying to use a loss record to count that fight against him in an equal way as the Jones fight in which Shogun got beat down.


Only 2 controversial decision have even been brought up (and rightfully so)

Anyone that is not a Shogun hater and knows anything about MMA should have scored the 1st Machida fight for Shogun.

The Henderson fight is either a 1 point win for Henderson or a draw. It is very debatable (whether you score the last round a 10-8 or not). Even if Shogun deserved the loss against Henderson you can't count a close war between two legends against the guy that came a little short the way you would like his spanking against Jon Jones.

Henderson-Shogun is like Forrest - Bonnar 1 in which neither guy's stock should go down much despite whoever the judges say lost.

Nothing wrong with questioning those decisions (esp the 1st Machida fight)
 
It's kinda sad that you people on this forum who consider one of the best light heavyweights to be overrated, despite him being in so many awesome battles.
 
Disgusting thread, that's all I got to say.
 
100 Not Out said:
I am not talking about a 12 month stretch. I am talking about overall career accomplishments. Plus, Shogun in 2005 beat prime fighters who were his size if not bigger. JJ, although amazing, beat way past prime prime Rampage and damaged goods: Shogun and Machida utilizing his reach and height.

Having said that if JJ continues like this for another two years then he will be LHW GOAT.
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One can't compare Jones to Shogun.

Jones beat Shogun like a child. These are two completely different class of martial artists
 
Joker Jiujitsu said:
He's fought only top tier guys in the UFC. He avenged his loss to Forrest, had two close losses (one each to Machida and Hendo) and has some gutsy performances against Gustafsson and Jones. Nothing to be ashamed about. He finished Liddell, finished Machida, finished Griffin... The guy's got a decent resume. Plus we all know his real peak was in Pride.
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Such bullshit. Coleman hasn't been a top guy since 2002.
 
i agree it's a terrible record. I almost wish Shogun retired after the Jones fight.
 
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