How,Why, and to What Submissions cause damage

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by triso, Sep 29, 2005.

  1. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    I'm looking for technical information about the damage that each submission inflicts. I figure we could either have some knowledgeable people post, or provide a few links to useful websites with this sort of information.

    I realize an armbar is going to fuck up your elbow joint, but what are the specifics. How does a move work, and why? What damage will it inflict? Does it tear ligaments, break bone, etc. How do chokes cut off your air supply and strangle you, the 2 arteries running up the side of your neck?

    I'd like to be able to explain when asked or telling someone of a move what exactly it does and why, and not think to myself shit is that right?
     
  2. TapDG

    TapDG Guest

    Chokes cut off the blodd supply to your brain and thats why you feel like your going to sleep..Takes alot longer to strangle the oxygen out of somebody then to simply cut off the blodd supply to your brain. Kimura dislocates the shoulder pretty bad..loud pop seen and heard it happen
     
  3. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    The RNC can either be applied as a choke (windpipe) or strangle (blood). The triangle is also a strangle.
    The heel hook and toe hold cause cause the joints to blow out, causing damage to cartiliage, ligaments and soft tissue.
     
  4. Big Red

    Big Red Green Belt

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    In jiu jitsu I when choked I must always have strangles or "blood chokes" as I never tap due to lack of air but feeling light headed.
     
  5. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    I suggest you get a book on Anatomy. Then take a course in Anatomy and Physiology.

    Personally I can't wait until this thread devolves into how a RNC works and the Vagus nerve experts chime in.
     
  6. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    Thanks for the helpful insight stoic. I guess I'll look into signing up at my local college. Why not, I have money and time to spare. Plus I
     
  7. Commissar

    Commissar Gold Belt

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    Dan, he's onto something here!
     
  8. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    Because you are asking questions geared more toward academia than application.

    If you want to know what every joint does, how it is constructed, how it moves, and what possible damage can be done to it by (X) number of moves you have the makings of an extremely long post. Compound that by the sheer number of idiots that have no idea what they are talking about and the thread length just doubled.

    And if you want to know the anatomy of the throat, arterial blood flow, and nervous system you are going to be better off STUDYING it, than reading a bunch of crap on an internet message board inundated by whitebelts who know very little about the mechanics of a choke, much less the repercussions or possible dangers. Hell - I bet there is a good percentage of them don't know why the words strangulation and choke are not interchangable but commonly are.

    Figure the sheer volume of submissions and the scope of your question is too broad.

    I could put out a fucking thesis on the dangers of heel hooks to the ACL. I could go into quite a bit of detail about what the ACL is, what its function is, the type of damage it normally sustains, the kind of reconstruction it requires, the mechanics of the different kinds of heel hooks, etc but much of that information will be lost on 3 month white belts whose only reply will be: We rollz wit em an I dun see wut yer problem iz you fuker, kekekekeke.

    Bottom line is you are talking about a very broad subject to a very uneducated audience.
     
  9. RedAger

    RedAger Amateur Fighter

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    subs dont cause damage its when your dumbass gets caught in subs that causes the damage
     
  10. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    Ok, guys, this was meant to be a discussion about the potential damage of a sub. Nothing more, what it damages, and so on. Nothing to do with getting caught in it, or not training heel hooks for this reason. I just wanted some facts or links about what each submission can do. Really, it's not rocket science.
     
  11. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    Stoic, that makes logical sense. But shit dude, I
     
  12. krellik

    krellik Gimli son of Cisco

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    I find this interesting to, and if you dont know what a submission you like to aply "actually does" it is a natural thing to want to find out. I will never understand people who spend time arguing that a thread is bad, why not just leave the thread alone and let it die in that case?
     
  13. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    You give me the submission or joint of your choice and I will do my best to answer it. Maybe a few others will too. But the original post is like asking for the collective efforts of Harvard and Yale to dump their accumulated knowledge onto a group of 6th graders. The audience would most likely rather tear out the pages of the books and make paper airplanes with them.
     
  14. triso

    triso Green Belt

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    Ok, I think you took the post a little to seriously assuming that I wanted THAT much detail as to escalate it to Harvard level studies, but I do appreciate you willing to answer so lets name a couple here.

    Since we used Kimura as an example before, let
     
  15. Enron Exec.

    Enron Exec. Guest

    Heel hooks - Knee ligiments and heel
    Armbar - Elbow
    Omoplata - Shoulder dislocation
    Keylock - shoulder
    Kimura - shoulder
    Ezekial - Choke your teeth and jaw if your a dick
    RNC - good night - Windpipe if you are a noob
     
  16. Mark Allen

    Mark Allen Enforcer

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    The pain felt in a "joint lock" like the kimura is a nervous system response to an "over stress" signal being generated by the ligaments (bone to bone) and to a lesser degree tendons (Muscle to bone) of the affected joint. Why pain? This nervous signal has to be a high enough level to get response from the system (brain) immediately. If the signal was like say "tingly" you, in the heat of competition, might chose to ignore it. It takes real concentration to ignore the pain signal of a joint in danger of over-stress.
     
  17. TapDG

    TapDG Guest

    They fucking hurt and cause discomfort..end of thread

    You should be learning this shit when your rolling..ya know..from your instuctor
     
  18. Stoic1

    Stoic1 Patriot

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    Dumbing it down quite a bit.

    Kimura = shoulder & Elbow. See Royler Gracie's look of grimace as his shoulder was attacked by Sakuraba. Also see Renzo's elbow dislocatation at the hands of Sakuraba.

    The angle of attack determines where the majority of the pressure is applied. Judoka will generally state that their armlocks only attack the elbow joint, and yet both the Kimura and Americana (Ude Garami) apply pressure to the shoulder. So this is a popular misconception as most people will agree the majority of pressure is usually applied at the shoulder.

    The shoulder and elbow can sustain several levels of injury depending on the amount of force used. For example, a simply 'popping' of the capsule of the elbow will cause fluid to be released and visable swelling will occur. The joint might become dislocated leading to the joint being unusable. The ligaments surrounding the elbow might be injured to the point of requiring surgery. The shoulder might be attacked at an angle that goes against the rotator cuff and tears it, requiring surgery. It might simply be stressed enough times that bursitis occurs. Or the ballistic force or angle could seperate the acromialclavicular joint.

    Of the two joints, elbow and shoulder, the shoulder is the more complex. Luckily it is protected by several large mucle groups that keep it stable. However, once a serious injury occurs it is likely that the shoulder will no longer be stable and can be prone to chronic injury.
     
  19. dutchmasterj3

    dutchmasterj3 Blue Belt

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    There are muscle cutters which seperate muscle from bone.
     
  20. wenispinkle

    wenispinkle Skankin' It Easy...

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    heel hook tears the ACL, because it causes the foot to turn out while you keep the knee in the same place. anytime this happens it will tear that ligament.
     

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