How proficient are Muay Thai guys at throws compared to Judokas?

Most of the MT sparring I've seen actual Thais do is very light. I get the impression they learn to fight in the ring from a young age, so their sparring can be more laid back and timing oriented. Personally I much prefer that style, makes your skills better and doesn't lead to anywhere near the same number of injuries and bout cancellations as hard sparring all the time. Not that it proves anything, but Floyd Mayweather and Conor MacGregor are both really big advocates of long, low intensity sparring sessions, as are Eastern Bloc wrestling coaches and Japanese Judoka.

This is a big reason why I do not enjoy Judo in the US. We've got some BS spread by coaches who think they are smart, saying that practice should replicate contest conditions. But in the end, it means that everyone is defensive and you might get 3 or so good attacks in per round.

Going with Japanese players is a real pleasure though. When they say they 'play' Judo that's what they mean. Everyone takes appropriate risks so that there are a lot more opportunities to practice.

Especially irritating are those who want to reduce Judo to tee-ball, where they just want to grind you with power grips and decide the game by a stamina match. I could go to the gym for that.

Then again, I don't see as much value in BJJ flow roll, so maybe I've been infected too...
 
This is a big reason why I do not enjoy Judo in the US. We've got some BS spread by coaches who think they are smart, saying that practice should replicate contest conditions. But in the end, it means that everyone is defensive and you might get 3 or so good attacks in per round.

Going with Japanese players is a real pleasure though. When they say they 'play' Judo that's what they mean. Everyone takes appropriate risks so that there are a lot more opportunities to practice.

Especially irritating are those who want to reduce Judo to tee-ball, where they just want to grind you with power grips and decide the game by a stamina match. I could go to the gym for that.

Then again, I don't see as much value in BJJ flow roll, so maybe I've been infected too...

This might come as a shock, but I agree with everything you wrote. American Judo does rely too much on power during practice and everyone does get overly defensive. And then when we go up against French and Japanese Judoka with fluid gripping and superior movement, we get tossed on our asses because all our stiff arming defense doesn't work for shit.

I don't like flow rolling either. It's too far in the other direction. Randori should be competitive but not cut throat. I'm all about high intensity, but that intensity has to be in the service of trying to do something, not just defend. The BJJ equivalent of American Judo randori would be a guy who just clamped on you as hard as he could from closed guard to prevent the pass and then never opened up to try and attack. Luckily most BJJ guys go for stuff all the time even when the intensity is high, you don't get the same kind of purely defensive play (probably because getting thrown is seen as a much bigger deal in most Judo dojos than getting your guard passed is at most BJJ gyms).
 
amen you two. i find gyms that spend a lot of time doing uhcikomi and conditioning are good at uchikomi and conditioning. competitive judo? not so much.
 
Personally I think you need both, mostly light sparring, but still some good hard rounds once a month or so. The reason fighters in Thailand almost always spar light is because they fight every 2-3weeks. When they spar heavy, it's front of crowds for money. It is generally heavy sparring too. Fighters in stadiums are professionals, if one guy is getting his ass whooped, the winning fighter can hold his glove out, if his opponent touches it he concedes defeat, they will spar 20% till the end of the round and live to fight another day. Anyway I digress, my opinion is that guys who have some training (maybe 6-9months) will see a benifit from a session of hard sparring once a month.
In bjj I usually go a bit rough and tumble, but I find it easier to judge when you can. I'll go hard during a scramble, but I'm not going to snatch on submission. I'm just a blue belt though so my opinion doesn't mean shit
 
Personally I think you need both, mostly light sparring, but still some good hard rounds once a month or so. The reason fighters in Thailand almost always spar light is because they fight every 2-3weeks. When they spar heavy, it's front of crowds for money. It is generally heavy sparring too. Fighters in stadiums are professionals, if one guy is getting his ass whooped, the winning fighter can hold his glove out, if his opponent touches it he concedes defeat, they will spar 20% till the end of the round and live to fight another day. Anyway I digress, my opinion is that guys who have some training (maybe 6-9months) will see a benifit from a session of hard sparring once a month.
In bjj I usually go a bit rough and tumble, but I find it easier to judge when you can. I'll go hard during a scramble, but I'm not going to snatch on submission. I'm just a blue belt though so my opinion doesn't mean shit

Hard sparring is important if you're not fighting often for sure. Though once you've done a lot of it, I think you can do it less frequently unless you have a big fight coming up.
 
That's a really key point, and it's one I need to keep in mind because my focus is mostly on coaching myself and a small group of training partners who have been doing combat sports for at least 8-10 years each, but it wouldn't work with beginners. I'm much more worried about injury and burnout prevention than I am trying to make people mentally and physically tough. Everyone I train with regularly already is mentally and physically tough, we just need to make it to the match/fight intact and healthy (doesn't help that we're all old in fight years, mostly early to mid 30s). I would definitely not want to take a bunch of kids who don't know shit and just say 'takedowns back and forth, moderate resistance, for the next half hour'.
It's not necessarily about "building toughness" but you get my overall point
 
apples and oranges

judoka throw without fear of being struck, nak muay throw using strikes as a gambit to throw and vice versa
nak muay can only legally throw across the front of the hips
there's also a 'grey area' in terms of kicking out and sweeping a leg
 
apples and oranges

judoka throw without fear of being struck, nak muay throw using strikes as a gambit to throw and vice versa
nak muay can only legally throw across the front of the hips
there's also a 'grey area' in terms of kicking out and sweeping a leg

Just like to add on to this, the rule as I understand it from my coach is you must use a kick to dump them and you can only throw them over your planted leg as a block and not use a foot sweep like movement.
I like how the clinching and sweeping rules work actually, it is a good mix for allowing striking from distance and the clinch.

I think a Nak Muay would surprise a few people with how hard it is to get out of the Plum though if you watch Benny the Jet Uruquidez or the Kyokushin challenge matches you see that Judo works well against them.
A guy at BJJ with Judo experience used a cheeky bit of Judo and got told off after sick of being thrown around by Thai's he was so much bigger than.

Anyway the MT vs Judo premise isn't very good but for no gi MT is an underrated addition to a wrestling or Judo game. I use the standing arm triangle position from MT well / a few clinch dumps are money.
 
This might come as a shock, but I agree with everything you wrote.

No shock here... believe it or not, I haven't posted much lately really because there isn't much for me to add anymore. We've got a group of competent Judo players around here. I just log on to sherdog and read Uchi Mata posts. On BJJ, hah!
 


Here is a video of some of the great guys training clinching.
 
having trained in both, very different, muay thai is more like greco. judo will help you with the balance a bit, similar concepts though but muay thai dumps are so different, they catch your leg quite often and dont hip toss obviously.
 
Just like to add on to this, the rule as I understand it from my coach is you must use a kick to dump them and you can only throw them over your planted leg as a block and not use a foot sweep like movement.

Things might have changed since my time in MT but back in the 90s I was fond of using the "hack" which I think sounds illegal under the rules you're describing... It was legal at the time though. It didn't score but it counts towards aggression which in a 3 rounder is definitely worth it.
 
I loved when they used to have San Shou with basically any throw, though as far as I could tell Cung Le was the only guy who was any good doing it. That's a fun rule set.

Ive always been extremely interested in the striking arts that implement throws and grappling and how many fighters will compete in multiple sports with differentnt guys being better/worse under different rule sets. Things like San Shou/Sanda, Shootboxing, Muay Thai, etc. How a guy like Toby Imada, a relative journeyman in MMA, can compete in the S-Cup and because of the rules he defeats a guy like Andy Souwer. Thats why I was so excited for Cung Le once he entered MMA. Cung had an incredible skill set for MMA. Very good San Shou fighter with great wrestling and very good hands. Its too bad he got into MMA a little late.
 
Yes.
The thing with MT is the "throws" are more dumps (not #2) and they're based on the idea that its a kick or knee that does it; Using your leg as an anchor to trip is illegal. At the end of the day its still a similar concept, you get your opponent off balance, then do the throw/dump, making it fairly easy as opposed to doing while they're based out strongly.

You can actually choke a guy out in MT with a standing arm triangle. Bullshit rounded knees, so you don't get broken up for stalling, while squeezing. The arm triangle position is allowed , it was an issue before when guys with a BJJ background transitioned over, as it was clearly a choke, but by the rules the position is allowed.
I didnt know this but I don't really practice MT. Thanks for increasing my knowledge today.
 
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