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- Apr 11, 2010
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INTRODUCTION
First off, this has nothing to do with who won or who I thought won or how the decision should have gone. Don’t want to argue about that and it’s been done intelligently elsewhere on this forum. This thread is about the REACTION to the fight.
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/who-do-you-think-won-jon-jones-vs-alexander-gustafsson-2564389/
Take a look at reactions in the beginning. The first 10 pages or so. Then take a look at the most recent 10 pages. See that? Why the change? Were Jones fans all asleep at the end of the fight? Or did something else happen that caused a change? And when asking “why the change” in fan opinion over the course of the night (and ultimately the last few days) we should also ask the equally important “why the ignoring?” The ignoring of WILD inconsistencies that is.
SOME OF THE MOST BLATANT INCONSISTENCIES POST-FIGHT
1. Fightmetric scores the fight for Gus by a wide margin, then Jones by a wide margin.
(http://www.mmaplanetonline.com/fishy-ufc-judges-decisions-and-fightmetric-stats)
RESPONSE MEME: They change it after rewatching. The end.
MY RESPONSE: Ok, I get that. But have they ever changed anything even REMOTELY as wildly as they did it with this fight? Have they ever subtracted nearly 80 strikes thrown (from just ONE fighter while the other goes largely “uncorrected”
? Have they ever flat-out confused fighter A for fighter B for 25 minutes in terms of respective stats? You can tell me they initially counted some misses and then slow-mo’d to fix it. But you CAN’T tell me it was FIGHTER-SPECIFIC that one fighter’s 80 strikes were imagined while the other fighters strikes were being ignored.
2. Fighters and fans score the fight for Gus by a wide margin, media scores it for Jones by a OUTRAGEOUSLY UNREALISTICALLY DOMINANT margin.
(here I would post the thread for media results but it has been taken off Sherdog now… most of you will remember it before it was deleted as showing that 95% of the media was scoring it for Jones)
RESPONSE MEME: Fans are biased/haters/stupid-disparaging-adjective-here. Media isn’t. The end.
MY RESPONSE: Think about the margin. This is one of the most damning pieces for people who understand statistics. Think of the most unanimous thing you can think of. Opposition to use of nuclear weapons against Syria maybe. It isn’t 95%. It would almost certainly be less. Why? Because in the real word there is a plurality of opinions. Like in the real world among fighters where it is split more evenly. More on this later…
3. Dana White says Gus rushed straight to the hospital, meanwhile Gus is getting interviewed by Ariel Helwani.
RESPONSE MEME: None yet. Mostly just ignoring it happened AFAIK. That or the conspiracy pic for pointing out reality.
BACKGROUND OF GROUPTHINK FOR A FRAME OF REFERENCE
We laughed at Saddam saying he had a 99% mandate... yet we DON’T laugh at MMA media going 95% in one direction… interesting isn’t it? Apparently in our little bubble world OUR society is free of coercion/corruption. But despite the Saddam election numbers being absurdly high was there not some internal logic to it? Imagine being in the parliament building when those sham votes were held. Even if you HATED Saddam you’d wonder “Who is doing it so they don’t get shot? Maybe they are all serious? Maybe I’m the only one, the one who is wrong?” You turn everyone against everyone. Don’t want the dissenter to dissent? Make him feel out of place/stupid/ostracized from the group. Because you would sure as hell want to fall in line, lest you get singled out. Dictatorship groupthink was based on violence. Pretty basic stuff, but there are also things like post-Stalin USSR tactics like demotion of position, getting sidelined from avenues of power if you didn’t “play the game”, etc.
SO WHAT'S THE POINT? WHY DOES GROUPTHINK MATTER IN MMA?
What is my point with the above paragraph? Groupthink doesn’t require handcuffs and gunshots. Capitalism has enforced groupthink too. Money is the most obvious example. Though there are often conceptual groupthinks as well, such as no one saying “Iraq might NOT have WMD” before 2003… because both the major parties agreed that it did therefore groupthink was enforced… the fact was never even questioned before war broke out.
But yeah, money is the obvious tool now in monopolistic-MMA just like violence was the obvious tool under communism/dictatorship. Do not forget the fighter opinions… they CAN’T be controlled as easily both in terms of the individuals in question being fighters/fans rather than working for press credentials and scrums and favorability from an organization exclusively AND their medium (twitter) is more open-ended, hence harder to revise (and they don’t communicate with Zuffa for pre-approval on giving their opinions like much of the media). Which is why 66% of fighters thought Gus won (and why on Sherdog 60% of fans thought Gus won). 66% is a REALISTIC result on an either/or opinion. Nevermind if it was for Gus or Jones, that isn’t the point here. The point is 95% almost NEVER is legit in polling. Like I said before, anyone at all who has even studied basic polls should know this.
Which brings me to my point. Groupthink and MMA. Look at the shift in rhetoric after A) the media results came in and B) fightmetric “corrected” stats in the form of a complete 180 unprecedented in the sport. The media bias tends to encourage groupthink. As are online posters (intentionally). Tow the line or be ostracized. The same point as sham elections… perceived legitimacy. But in chasing ABSURDLY unrealistic inflated-sham legitimacy they also delegitimize themselves to rationally-thinking people (might be the reason why the thread showing that 95% has now been deleted actually).
CONCLUSIONS
There are two options you can take on this. Either you deny money is an influence in the world, like a 15 year old who has never worked a job in his life (some on Sherdog fit this I’m sure, but most don’t), and post the conspiracy jpg. Or you can acknowledge that if it walks like a duck (absurd media subservience to who they think they are supposed to favor) and talks like a duck (49-46 + post-fight comments + almost certainly a wave of corporate-sponsored forum posts on page 1 of as many threads as possible that initial night to combat the AVALANCHE of unanswerable questions that happened after the fight) and smells like a duck (unprecedented 180 on fight stats in favor of the gatorade/nike sponsored fighter) then it might just be a duck. Maybe money miight just have a influence in the real world! /conspiracy.jpg
The point of this thread is to discourage groupthink. Think for yourself, not because of a bunch of people in authority told you to think a certain way. Sad that sometimes it seems as if UFC fighters (employed by Zuffa) were less susceptible than sheepish fans (who, since not employed by Zuffa, would theoretically be LESS susceptible to towing the corporate line). But MMA fans have again and again proven how sheepish they are. The ignoring of OBVIOUS questions + this whole farce being reduced to internet name-calling and labeling of “haters” and “nuthuggers” and other juvenile bullshit. Don’t get me wrong… I’m sure fighters will be pushed as well as much as Zuffa can manage. But the truth was on display before that could happen… and let me tell you… fighter opinion results weren't a 95% rubber stamp of approval for the guy with millions upon millions of dollars in marketing and big-name endorsements.
Think clearly and let’s talk facts rather than one-liner bullshit or name-calling in this thread. Is groupthink applicable to MMA world and monopolies over industries in general? Let’s discuss where MMA ultimately is at and where it is headed… while this thread still exists anyway, since it is quite possible a mod will delete it and prove that internet discussions are also susceptible to wanting to groupthink sadly. Yes, they want press credentials too and money means something in this world of ours.
Thoughts? Logical arguments as to why you think I am just paranoid or wrong? Anything you think I missed or should be added?
TLDR: I think groupthink is VERY prevalent today... specifically because it is operating under monopoly conditions. Zuffa has applied it beautifully in silencing critics of obvious lack of independence on the part of the media and other officials not employed but Zuffa that are nevertheless subservient under most conditions. Groupthink is prevalent both in that it is intentionally engineered from the top (see ludicrous media results) and how quickly it is propagated amongst fans (witness Sherdog on a daily basis and how quickly it reacts to narrative shifts given to them from above, even if utterly illogical). Groupthink exists in in ALL societies, not just your fantasy-land communist-Other perceptions. Money determines influence (MMA media tends to endorse the obvious marketing favorite), despite 90% of Sherdoggers thinking that that means “conspiracy” when they clearly never looked up the word “conspiracy” in a dictionary. Finally, I hope this website errors on the side of free discussion rather than corporate subservience and censorship and doesn’t delete this thread like it does with nearly every thread that poses questions that DON'T feature the words “hater” or “nuthugger” 10 times in every paragraph.
First off, this has nothing to do with who won or who I thought won or how the decision should have gone. Don’t want to argue about that and it’s been done intelligently elsewhere on this forum. This thread is about the REACTION to the fight.
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f2/who-do-you-think-won-jon-jones-vs-alexander-gustafsson-2564389/
Take a look at reactions in the beginning. The first 10 pages or so. Then take a look at the most recent 10 pages. See that? Why the change? Were Jones fans all asleep at the end of the fight? Or did something else happen that caused a change? And when asking “why the change” in fan opinion over the course of the night (and ultimately the last few days) we should also ask the equally important “why the ignoring?” The ignoring of WILD inconsistencies that is.
SOME OF THE MOST BLATANT INCONSISTENCIES POST-FIGHT
1. Fightmetric scores the fight for Gus by a wide margin, then Jones by a wide margin.
(http://www.mmaplanetonline.com/fishy-ufc-judges-decisions-and-fightmetric-stats)
RESPONSE MEME: They change it after rewatching. The end.
MY RESPONSE: Ok, I get that. But have they ever changed anything even REMOTELY as wildly as they did it with this fight? Have they ever subtracted nearly 80 strikes thrown (from just ONE fighter while the other goes largely “uncorrected”
? Have they ever flat-out confused fighter A for fighter B for 25 minutes in terms of respective stats? You can tell me they initially counted some misses and then slow-mo’d to fix it. But you CAN’T tell me it was FIGHTER-SPECIFIC that one fighter’s 80 strikes were imagined while the other fighters strikes were being ignored. 2. Fighters and fans score the fight for Gus by a wide margin, media scores it for Jones by a OUTRAGEOUSLY UNREALISTICALLY DOMINANT margin.
(here I would post the thread for media results but it has been taken off Sherdog now… most of you will remember it before it was deleted as showing that 95% of the media was scoring it for Jones)
RESPONSE MEME: Fans are biased/haters/stupid-disparaging-adjective-here. Media isn’t. The end.
MY RESPONSE: Think about the margin. This is one of the most damning pieces for people who understand statistics. Think of the most unanimous thing you can think of. Opposition to use of nuclear weapons against Syria maybe. It isn’t 95%. It would almost certainly be less. Why? Because in the real word there is a plurality of opinions. Like in the real world among fighters where it is split more evenly. More on this later…
3. Dana White says Gus rushed straight to the hospital, meanwhile Gus is getting interviewed by Ariel Helwani.
RESPONSE MEME: None yet. Mostly just ignoring it happened AFAIK. That or the conspiracy pic for pointing out reality.
BACKGROUND OF GROUPTHINK FOR A FRAME OF REFERENCE
We laughed at Saddam saying he had a 99% mandate... yet we DON’T laugh at MMA media going 95% in one direction… interesting isn’t it? Apparently in our little bubble world OUR society is free of coercion/corruption. But despite the Saddam election numbers being absurdly high was there not some internal logic to it? Imagine being in the parliament building when those sham votes were held. Even if you HATED Saddam you’d wonder “Who is doing it so they don’t get shot? Maybe they are all serious? Maybe I’m the only one, the one who is wrong?” You turn everyone against everyone. Don’t want the dissenter to dissent? Make him feel out of place/stupid/ostracized from the group. Because you would sure as hell want to fall in line, lest you get singled out. Dictatorship groupthink was based on violence. Pretty basic stuff, but there are also things like post-Stalin USSR tactics like demotion of position, getting sidelined from avenues of power if you didn’t “play the game”, etc.
SO WHAT'S THE POINT? WHY DOES GROUPTHINK MATTER IN MMA?
What is my point with the above paragraph? Groupthink doesn’t require handcuffs and gunshots. Capitalism has enforced groupthink too. Money is the most obvious example. Though there are often conceptual groupthinks as well, such as no one saying “Iraq might NOT have WMD” before 2003… because both the major parties agreed that it did therefore groupthink was enforced… the fact was never even questioned before war broke out.
But yeah, money is the obvious tool now in monopolistic-MMA just like violence was the obvious tool under communism/dictatorship. Do not forget the fighter opinions… they CAN’T be controlled as easily both in terms of the individuals in question being fighters/fans rather than working for press credentials and scrums and favorability from an organization exclusively AND their medium (twitter) is more open-ended, hence harder to revise (and they don’t communicate with Zuffa for pre-approval on giving their opinions like much of the media). Which is why 66% of fighters thought Gus won (and why on Sherdog 60% of fans thought Gus won). 66% is a REALISTIC result on an either/or opinion. Nevermind if it was for Gus or Jones, that isn’t the point here. The point is 95% almost NEVER is legit in polling. Like I said before, anyone at all who has even studied basic polls should know this.
Which brings me to my point. Groupthink and MMA. Look at the shift in rhetoric after A) the media results came in and B) fightmetric “corrected” stats in the form of a complete 180 unprecedented in the sport. The media bias tends to encourage groupthink. As are online posters (intentionally). Tow the line or be ostracized. The same point as sham elections… perceived legitimacy. But in chasing ABSURDLY unrealistic inflated-sham legitimacy they also delegitimize themselves to rationally-thinking people (might be the reason why the thread showing that 95% has now been deleted actually).
CONCLUSIONS
There are two options you can take on this. Either you deny money is an influence in the world, like a 15 year old who has never worked a job in his life (some on Sherdog fit this I’m sure, but most don’t), and post the conspiracy jpg. Or you can acknowledge that if it walks like a duck (absurd media subservience to who they think they are supposed to favor) and talks like a duck (49-46 + post-fight comments + almost certainly a wave of corporate-sponsored forum posts on page 1 of as many threads as possible that initial night to combat the AVALANCHE of unanswerable questions that happened after the fight) and smells like a duck (unprecedented 180 on fight stats in favor of the gatorade/nike sponsored fighter) then it might just be a duck. Maybe money miight just have a influence in the real world! /conspiracy.jpg
The point of this thread is to discourage groupthink. Think for yourself, not because of a bunch of people in authority told you to think a certain way. Sad that sometimes it seems as if UFC fighters (employed by Zuffa) were less susceptible than sheepish fans (who, since not employed by Zuffa, would theoretically be LESS susceptible to towing the corporate line). But MMA fans have again and again proven how sheepish they are. The ignoring of OBVIOUS questions + this whole farce being reduced to internet name-calling and labeling of “haters” and “nuthuggers” and other juvenile bullshit. Don’t get me wrong… I’m sure fighters will be pushed as well as much as Zuffa can manage. But the truth was on display before that could happen… and let me tell you… fighter opinion results weren't a 95% rubber stamp of approval for the guy with millions upon millions of dollars in marketing and big-name endorsements.
Think clearly and let’s talk facts rather than one-liner bullshit or name-calling in this thread. Is groupthink applicable to MMA world and monopolies over industries in general? Let’s discuss where MMA ultimately is at and where it is headed… while this thread still exists anyway, since it is quite possible a mod will delete it and prove that internet discussions are also susceptible to wanting to groupthink sadly. Yes, they want press credentials too and money means something in this world of ours.
Thoughts? Logical arguments as to why you think I am just paranoid or wrong? Anything you think I missed or should be added?
TLDR: I think groupthink is VERY prevalent today... specifically because it is operating under monopoly conditions. Zuffa has applied it beautifully in silencing critics of obvious lack of independence on the part of the media and other officials not employed but Zuffa that are nevertheless subservient under most conditions. Groupthink is prevalent both in that it is intentionally engineered from the top (see ludicrous media results) and how quickly it is propagated amongst fans (witness Sherdog on a daily basis and how quickly it reacts to narrative shifts given to them from above, even if utterly illogical). Groupthink exists in in ALL societies, not just your fantasy-land communist-Other perceptions. Money determines influence (MMA media tends to endorse the obvious marketing favorite), despite 90% of Sherdoggers thinking that that means “conspiracy” when they clearly never looked up the word “conspiracy” in a dictionary. Finally, I hope this website errors on the side of free discussion rather than corporate subservience and censorship and doesn’t delete this thread like it does with nearly every thread that poses questions that DON'T feature the words “hater” or “nuthugger” 10 times in every paragraph.
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