how much experience to be 'legit'

[StanClarker]

yeah freddie roach is a good example, I believe he had something like 20 professional fights, one of the best coaches.

Entireley possible for there to be great coaches without fight experience......however to compensate for the lack of fight experience, I feel they should have extensive training and sparring experience.

What your not going to find is a guy that is a great coach, that hasnt fought, hasnt sparred, and hasnt been training long.

theres a differences between knowing how to do something, being able to do something, being able to use that something, and being able to teach others how to do, and use, that something. Great coaches have all of these qualities combined.

Your videos are very good Muay Thai. Appearance which I can tell. What I've read by you, great knowledge & experience too. Just doesn't seem to translate into MMA competitors. The same level. And substandard coaching I would hazard to say is responsible in large measure.

 

[esdoornblad]

You're a rare bird for an MMA forum.

It's interesting when you bring up point fighting. Judo is randori, which certainty is full contact. Randori practice can range in intensity, but @ the practice level to informal competition, it's to be relaxed pace. I wonder why? It's becoming apparent to me the reason(s).

Most training volume in any combat sport (boxing, MT, whatever) is not even close to going "all out". That's just going to get you injured. Drills and conditioning are a huge part. In the early days of full contact karate people were often quite good technically and had great timing, but they were not conditioned for multiple rounds and not used to taking shots.

I would also add that "back in the day", without BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA taking up all the talent, it was very typical to take more than one art seriously. So you had karate point fighters who were also boxers (this was every full contact karate guy), or guys with BBs in judo and karate (or TKD).

 

[shincheckin]

Your videos are very good Muay Thai. Appearance which I can tell. What I've read by you, great knowledge & experience too. Just doesn't seem to translate into MMA competitors. The same level. And substandard coaching I would hazard to say is responsible in large measure.

yeah the overall skill of the low level pro MMA fighters is well, low.....its almost as if low level pro mma is like the amateur circuit, and the pros are the guys fighting on the bigger shows like RFA for example. I actually had a similar conversation with a professional MMA fighter friend of mine, I hadnt seen him for a while and he told me he had gone pro, I was like oh awesome man, how many amatuer fights did you do before deciding to go pro? He said 3! when he said that, i was like wtf dude only 3 fights.....he explained to me its different in MMA, he said by after 3 fights, everyone is like, why arent you pro already.

Fighting pro is great, however there is a difference between fighting pro, and actually being a "pro". I know a pro MT fighter that was 1-1 as an amatuer. You can even fight pro your first fight. Some people are just after the title of being "pro" and rush into it. Infact i would say the majority of people at least in the socal MT community seem to rush into fighting pro.

it can also be debated whether building experience as an amateur with a slightly different ruleset is better than fighting pro quickly and building your experience there.

 

[j123]

yeah the overall skill of the low level pro MMA fighters is well, low.....its almost as if low level pro mma is like the amateur circuit, and the pros are the guys fighting on the bigger shows like RFA for example. I actually had a similar conversation with a professional MMA fighter friend of mine, I hadnt seen him for a while and he told me he had gone pro, I was like oh awesome man, how many amatuer fights did you do before deciding to go pro? He said 3! when he said that, i was like wtf dude only 3 fights.....he explained to me its different in MMA, he said by after 3 fights, everyone is like, why arent you pro already.

Fighting pro is great, however there is a difference between fighting pro, and actually being a "pro". I know a pro MT fighter that was 1-1 as an amatuer. You can even fight pro your first fight. Some people are just after the title of being "pro" and rush into it. Infact i would say the majority of people at least in the socal MT community seem to rush into fighting pro.

it can also be debated whether building experience as an amateur with a slightly different ruleset is better than fighting pro quickly and building your experience there.

I think its more of an American MMA thing. Other countries (if they don't mix them) try to follow a "boxing model" for ammy -> pro

I know 2 guys who went pro in less than a year just for the money since they found getting regular work tough and needed the money ASAP. It's rare these days though, early 2000s yeah.

In their defense, ammy MMA and MMA isn't too different: same gear as pro, just no elbows. Some orgs are all over the place with ruleset, but unified rules is pretty much the most common among promotions. A few mates of mine who I said it'd be better for him to get some more exp (he had 4 fights at the time), said he was taking damage regardless ammy or pro, so he might as well get paid for it than to accumulate damage before his career even starts.

 

[shincheckin]

I think its more of an American MMA thing. Other countries (if they don't mix them) try to follow a "boxing model" for ammy -> pro

I know 2 guys who went pro in less than a year just for the money since they found getting regular work tough and needed the money ASAP. It's rare these days though, early 2000s yeah.

In their defense, ammy MMA and MMA isn't too different: same gear as pro, just no elbows. Some orgs are all over the place with ruleset, but unified rules is pretty much the most common among promotions. A few mates of mine who I said it'd be better for him to get some more exp (he had 4 fights at the time), said he was taking damage regardless ammy or pro, so he might as well get paid for it than to accumulate damage before his career even starts.

yeah i agree, also heard that one before, might as well get paid to fight right lol.

gladiator challenge is pro MMA but is known for having low skill level and "just tossing" anyone in there for a fight.

 

[StanClarker]

Most training volume in any combat sport (boxing, MT, whatever) is not even close to going "all out". That's just going to get you injured. Drills and conditioning are a huge part. In the early days of full contact karate people were often quite good technically and had great timing, but they were not conditioned for multiple rounds and not used to taking shots.

In other words, they did dumb stuff. Big picture, they weren't prepared.

That's the thing I(we @ our dojo) like about Judo. It's being gentle, not 'tough' MMA-wise. It's a gentle-toughness which overcomes the physical-tough opponent.

I would also add that "back in the day", without BJJ, Muay Thai and MMA taking up all the talent, it was very typical to take more than one art seriously. So you had karate point fighters who were also boxers (this was every full contact karate guy), or guys with BBs in judo and karate (or TKD).

Sure,I have seen that. We have on member @ our dojo who is doing just that w boxing... but he's going to do others (so he says). He's a minority though. Most all have too many other demands.

The question have for him is: does he think his boxing / judo > my judo alone concentration? I'm aiming to beat his blend by Judo alone. Jigoro Kano says it will work.

 

[StanClarker]

Most training volume in any combat sport (boxing, MT, whatever) is not even close to going "all out". That's just going to get you injured. Drills and conditioning are a huge part. In the early days of full contact karate people were often quite good technically and had great timing, but they were not conditioned for multiple rounds and not used to taking shots.

Judo makes a great case for itself w and injury free design. Judo has other disadvantages. Injury free approach is not one of them.

 

[StanClarker]

yeah the overall skill of the low level pro MMA fighters is well, low.....its almost as if low level pro mma is like the amateur circuit, and the pros are the guys fighting on the bigger shows like RFA for example. I actually had a similar conversation with a professional MMA fighter friend of mine, I hadnt seen him for a while and he told me he had gone pro, I was like oh awesome man, how many amatuer fights did you do before deciding to go pro? He said 3! when he said that, i was like wtf dude only 3 fights.....he explained to me its different in MMA, he said by after 3 fights, everyone is like, why arent you pro already.

This includes the bias that 'fights' make a fighter. By traditional martial arts... it's can you execute the art.

The Judo randori brings this out very quickly in the over-confident. They either get thrown, get their throws stuffed right off, or go aggressive & get reined in by the instructors.

I lost both initial randori matches, against senior ranks. The important point for me,,, was to get accustomed to the ebb and flow of the opposing partner. Randori... you have a partner, not an opponent in the pure sense.

I'll continue in a separate post.

Fighting pro is great, however there is a difference between fighting pro, and actually being a "pro". I know a pro MT fighter that was 1-1 as an amatuer. You can even fight pro your first fight. Some people are just after the title of being "pro" and rush into it. Infact i would say the majority of people at least in the socal MT community seem to rush into fighting pro.

I'm following some amateur fighters, this one & that one from time to time. Like that Aikido guy who went MMA. He's doing much better under SBG & MMA. Then I saw a video of him trying out a karate class somewhere. He should stick w MMA & SBG.

I tried to make this point when commencing posting @ TSF (getting a much better reception @ TGF). What MMA calls nuances, Judo is must know basic technical construction. Instead, MMA does this.
John Wayne Parr smashing Pads at Tristar with Coach Firas Zahabi
97,054 views
•Aug 18, 2013


Tristar Gym
201K subscribers

I can see this by MMA, highly recommended. By Judo & traditional Japanese thinking that I know of, this is martial cheesecake.

it can also be debated whether building experience as an amateur with a slightly different ruleset is better than fighting pro quickly and building your experience there.

Again, this is sports type thinking where experience makes a good employee. Kinda get it?

Judo traditional doesn't look @ martial achievement this way @ all. Tournament judo 'shops' might, do I guess. I do see your point. It supports me, my not rushing into randori. White belt + white belt = no Judo equation.

The amateur MMA talent those I'm watching are going up against, the quality of these so- called Amateur MMA competitors is Mc-MMA. They mistakes @ every turn. Like the boxing footwork = what footwork?Remember Tito vs. Lyoto Machia?

 

[esdoornblad]

In other words, they did dumb stuff. Big picture, they weren't prepared.

No, I don't think that's the takeaway. None of the TMAs (including Judo) are preparing you for all sorts of stuff you will encounter in the ring or "for real".

 

[j123]

None of the TMAs (including Judo) are preparing you for all sorts of stuff you will encounter in the ring or "for real".

You must be new here, you just opened Pandora's box

 

[esdoornblad]

You must be new here, you just opened Pandora's box

There is one exception to what I said: Shotokan karate will prepare you for every possible combat situation.

 

[StanClarker]

No, I don't think that's the takeaway. None of the TMAs (including Judo) are preparing you for all sorts of stuff you will encounter in the ring or "for real".

Completely unexpected.

 

[shincheckin]

This includes the bias that 'fights' make a fighter. By traditional martial arts... it's can you execute the art.

The Judo randori brings this out very quickly in the over-confident. They either get thrown, get their throws stuffed fight off, or go aggressive and get reined in by the instructors.

I lost both initial randori matches, against senior ranks. The important point for me,,, was to get accustomed to the ebb and flow of the opposing partner. Randori... you have a partner, not an opponent in the pure sense.

I'll continue in a separate post.


I'm following some amateur fighters, this one & that one from time to time. Like that Aikido guy who went MMA. He's doing much better under SBG & MMA. Then I saw a video of him trying out a karate class somewhere. He should stick w MMA & SBG.

I tried to make this point when commencing posting @ TSF (getting a much better reception @ TGF). What MMA calls nuances, Judo is must know basic technical construction. Instead, MMA does this.
John Wayne Parr smashing Pads at Tristar with Coach Firas Zahabi
97,054 views
•Aug 18, 2013


Tristar Gym
201K subscribers

I can see this by MMA, highly recommended. By Judo & traditional Japanese thinking that I know of, this is martial cheesecake.


Again, this is sports type thinking where experience makes a good employee. Kinda get it?

Judo traditional doesn't look @ martial achievement this way @ all. Tournament judo 'shops' might, do I guess. I do see your point. It supports me, my not rushing into randori. White belt + white belt = no Judo equation.

The amateur MMA talent those I'm watching are going up against, the quality of these so- called Amateur MMA competitors is Mc-MMA. They mistakes @ every turn. Like the boxing footwork = what footwork?Remember Tito vs. Lyoto Machia?

im confused what you are referring to regarding JWP?

 

[StanClarker]

There is one exception to what I said: Shotokan karate will prepare you for every possible combat situation.

Now we are trolling to the other extreme. Have been watching some kumite tournaments, and I'm getting doubts about the Shotokan style. I still think it has the most potential of all the 3 main styles I'm considering... but becoming less sure it would be what I choose to take up. (settling on videos for boxing footwork - hate some of them).

 

[StanClarker]

There is one exception to what I said: Shotokan karate will prepare you for every possible combat situation.

It's a shame that the commercial value of MMA is driven by bias of the traditional arts. But it's true that the fan love and entertainment value leveraged off the perpetual bias against traditionalism, which the TSF displays against karate or a non-mma voice on same.

 

[StanClarker]

im confused what you are referring to regarding JWP?

No kidding.

 

[StanClarker]

Hey speaking of what makes a good coach, here's one I've settled on for boxing basics, especially footwork. She's a hard ass in tights, you all should love her.
Boxing Training - Footwork for Beginners
168,335 views
•Apr 10, 2014


cary williams

One thing is fur shure watcking dis videeo. MMA striking doesn't know what time it is!!!

Don't know how she fits into the thread formula... and don't CARE.

 

[StanClarker]

im confused what you are referring to regarding JWP?

Herre, let me help.

..................................Firas post fight............................................Silence is golden.

 

[StanClarker]

im confused what you are referring to regarding JWP?

How about this.
Rose Namajunas And Joanna Corner And Family Reactions After Rose KOs Joanna At UFC 217
95,560 views
•Nov 9, 2017


Mridul UFC Full Fight

Guess my close look @ boxing footwork isn't so silly after all. If I keep this winning streak up, that means good things for my No. 1 karate selection (Shotokan karate), my intelligence working out so well. See Firas, you're not alone in defeat, shocking to your sizable flock as it is.

 

[esdoornblad]

Now we are trolling to the other extreme. Have been watching some kumite tournaments, and I'm getting doubts about the Shotokan style. I still think it has the most potential of all the 3 main styles I'm considering... but becoming less sure it would be what I choose to take up.

Yes, after 15 years of mostly serious posing I'm now putting on my troll suit. This thread has also gone off the rails. So I hope to at least say something slightly related to the initial topic.

Seriously, I think Judo is excellent. My long-time coach was a BB and we (his fighters) always respected that. I think nearly all TMAs have at least some value. But I also believe that all arts, or all schools of the same art, are not equal. Let's skip the comparisons, like Kyokushinkai is "better" than kung fu (even though I believe that is mostly true, and we all know why). One major factor is how good the fighters are, and how serious/brutal the training is. If your Judo class is a bunch of moms and kids, you are wasting your time. Similarly, if your Hung Gar class is full of athletic and semi-sociopathic guys, you will probably learn a thing or two of real value on the street. This important variable of "seriousness" is lost in most discussion (amirite?).

One feature of MMA and BJJ has been the erosion of talent from TMA over the last 20 years. If I was a teenager today I would not set foot in a TMA gym. I would stick to the "hardcore" styles of the day: Muay Thai and BJJ (boxing on Sunday). But in the 80s -- in the absence of all this -- the very best were drawn to TKD or whatever karate style looked the most brutal. It was some of the more serious and hardcore karate schools that served as the gateway to full contact karate. Of course McDojos existed in those days, but similarly today you can find Muay Thai schools where only one or two people are good and the rest are moms, kids and unathletic guys.