Social How many times has socialism failed?

You're confusing simple taxation with seizing the means of production.

It's a common mistake.

hi ho Farmer Br0wn,

another common mistake is reducing the whole of socialist economic policy to "who owns the means of production"?

its fine if you don't want to see something like the US military, which provides all sorts of stuff like housing, healthcare, education, etc, which is payed for by the US taxpayers and exists for the common good and is not owned by any corporate entity, but rather the public...that's alright, lol.

agree to disagree.

- IGIT
 
hi ho Farmer Br0wn,

another common mistake is reducing the whole of socialist economic policy to "who owns the means of production"?

its fine if you don't want to see something like the US military, which provides all sorts of stuff like housing, healthcare, education, etc, which is payed for by the US taxpayers and exists for the common good and is not owned by any corporate entity, but rather the public...that's alright, lol.

agree to disagree.

- IGIT
Fuck that I would rather it all be private and the different companies will each have their own military and they can compete to prove who is the best!
 
hi ho Farmer Br0wn,

another common mistake is reducing the whole of socialist economic policy to "who owns the means of production"?

its fine if you don't want to see something like the US military, which provides all sorts of stuff like housing, healthcare, education, etc, which is payed for by the US taxpayers and exists for the common good and is not owned by any corporate entity, but rather the public...that's alright, lol.

agree to disagree.

- IGIT

I don't agree to disagree.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary says you're wrong:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Definition of socialism


1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communismand distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done
 
I don't agree to disagree.

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary says you're wrong:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Definition of socialism


1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communismand distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

hi FarmerBr0wn,

like i said, i'm happy to agree to disagree!

- IGIT
 
hi FarmerBr0wn,

like i said, i'm happy to agree to disagree!

- IGIT

I don't agree to disagree.

That's just an out that people use when their position has been proven wrong, but they still don't want to abandon that position for whatever reason.

It's another way of saying you're wrong but you don't want to admit it.

You've been proven wrong, there's nothing to disagree over.
 
well there's a pretty stark difference between Socialist programs w/in a larger capitalist framework.....and an all out Socialist system/framework
 
I don't agree to disagree.

That's just an out that people use when their position has been proven wrong, but they still don't want to abandon that position for whatever reason.

It's another way of saying you're wrong but you don't want to admit it.

You've been proven wrong, there's nothing to disagree over.

hi Farmer Br0wn,

aye, we agree to disagree. its ok by me, my friend.

- IGIT
 
well there's a pretty stark difference between Socialist programs w/in a larger capitalist framework.....and an all out Socialist system/framework
socialist programs in a larger capitalist frame work is the best though!

Sadly it is ultimately unsustainable.
 
good morning JudoThrowFiasco,

sometimes when i'm discussing welfare/SNAP payment rates of the southern states (gluttons at the Federal trough), the response i get is, "its just the blacks. if you removed the blacks, then the statistics look fine".

how would the gaudy numbers on net wealth look in the US if you removed the top 1% or even the top 10%, where almost all the net wealth is pooled?

*ponders*

i think it might be more accurate to say that the very, very, very rich have it better in the US than the wealthy Danes have it in Denmark (our wealth gap numbers don't look that great, though we do rank ahead of Uganda and Ghana and Papua New Guinea *fistbump*).

for the other 99% or so, life is better in Denmark than the US.

- IGIT

That's why I referenced the median and not the mean - the median represents the truer spread while the mean is more skewed by the tops.
 
hi Farmer Br0wn,

aye, we agree to disagree. its ok by me, my friend.

- IGIT

You and I have always been friendly even when we disagree, and i suspect in the future we will continue to do so. However, as a matter of principle, I never agree to disagree.

That is a phrase used by people who are in an incorrect position, but don't want to concede that their position is incorrect.

I wish you well.
 
That's why I referenced the median and not the mean - the median represents the truer spread while the mean is more skewed by the tops.

hiya JudoThrowFiasco,

gotcha, i misread that.

let me ask you a question.

assuming one is well fed and has a roof over their heads and a car and internet and all the things we associate as components of a "normal life", how much does perception figure into things, as far as wealth goes?

i'm asking because we were comparing Denmark to the US, and delving into quality of life issues.

if the median degree of wealth in Denmark places an individual on a more compressed scale than the US, where the wealth gap is sort of a huge chasm - is it possible that the Danes feel wealthier than their counterparts in the US?

most...actually, almost 80% of the nation's wealth is coalesced into the top 10%, so how wealthy can one actually feel if you're at the median level in the United States?

this isn't really my bailiwick, so i'm not sure if i'm phrasing my question clearly.

- IGIT
 
Denmark also has, IIRC, the highest personal income tax rates in the world
and 25% VAT/sales tax (that is highly egregious).
edit: my bad, I think Sweden currently has slightly higher income rates than Denmark

Doesnt matter though. Murkans might pay less in taxes but at the end of the year they pay more out of pocket for healthcare and education. Danes taxes might be 36% but they get free healthcare and dont have student loan payments after they graduate. Meanwhile Murkan rate might be 26 or 27% but theyre paying 500$ a month for healthcare with a 4,000$ deductible and have 200$/month student loan payments, assuming they went to college. :confused:

For the average poor Murkan thats a raw deal, but I know how you guys think that poor people arent real people.:oops:
 
hiya JudoThrowFiasco,

gotcha, i misread that.

let me ask you a question.

assuming one is well fed and has a roof over their heads and a car and internet and all the things we associate as components of a "normal life", how much does perception figure into things, as far as wealth goes?

i'm asking because we were comparing Denmark to the US, and delving into quality of life issues.

if the median degree of wealth in Denmark places an individual on a more compressed scale than the US, where the wealth gap is sort of a huge chasm - is it possible that the Danes feel wealthier than their counterparts in the US?

most...actually, almost 80% of the nation's wealth is coalesced into the top 10%, so how wealthy can one actually feel if you're at the median level in the United States?

this isn't really my bailiwick, so i'm not sure if i'm phrasing my question clearly.

- IGIT

Factor in cost of living day to day and I would say the top 50 in the US have more disposal income and the bottom 50 of Danes are more secured, even with less money. Even with with lower household debt, higher wage and lower cost of living, the US personal debt is marked super high by credit card debt, which signifies a higher rate of consumption. Meaning Americans aren't shy about spending their gains.

You also have to remember that even in Denmark, the top 10 percent holds 70+ of the total wealth.
 
You also have to remember that even in Denmark, the top 10 percent holds 70+ of the total wealth.

hiya JTF,

ayup.

in every country, the richest people have the most.

its just the phenomenon is more acute here in the land of milk and honey, as compared to Denmark.

regarding the rest, ayup! not only are Americans not shy about spending their gains, our economic engine kind of depends on it.

all of this aside, when i read survey after survey about how happy those damned Danes are, i have to admit...i figure there must be something to it.

i mean, if i was given a magical choice to start my life over, and instead of growing up near New York City, i'd grow up in Coppenhagen - i might go for it.

when i think about my fellow Americans, do they seem like a generally happy lot?

- IGIT
 
How is that offsetted at all if the end result is higher cost of living, more household debt and less net wealth?

More household debt?

Murkans and Danes are graduating college with about the same income and Murkans are paying 500$/month for healthcare with 5k deductibles and making student loan payments of 200$ /month. Danes are graduating with no student loan or healthcare payments. So how does that make the Murkan system better?





Wtf? Where did you pull that from? US post secondary graduation rates are higher than Denmarks

Acoording to the UN Human Development Report, Denmark ranks #2 on the Education Index whereas Murka ranks around 8.



and how are they better able to afford it when their net wealth is lower and household debt is higher? That offsets median wage.

Because theyre not paying 500$ a month for insurance with a 5k deductible or a 3k deductible, or paying 200$ a month for their student loan payments. Obama even said his biggest expense was his student loan payments. Danes graduate debt-free and have more discretionary income.

Even still, the US systems allows for overall lower cost of living, with less debt, and higher median wealth

Danes have higher VAT taxes on beer and cigarettes but Murkan healthcare and education is much more expensive and crippling.

So I guess if you think beer and cigs are more important than healthcare or education for a society you might have a case.
 
hiya JTF,

ayup.

in every country, the richest people have the most.

its just the phenomenon is more acute here in the land of milk and honey, as compared to Denmark.

regarding the rest, ayup! not only are Americans not shy about spending their gains, our economic engine kind of depends on it.

all of this aside, when i read survey after survey about how happy those damned Danes are, i have to admit...i figure there must be something to it.

i mean, if i was given a magical choice to start my life over, and instead of growing up near New York City, i'd grow up in Coppenhagen - i might go for it.

when i think about my fellow Americans, do they seem like a generally happy lot?

- IGIT

Denmark has the fastest rate of concentration of wealth, Sweden's gini coefficient has been rising at the fastest rate in the developed nation -- nords model may be slipping if equality is their game.

The happiness rankings are pretty subjective and nebulous IMO -- but yeah, if security is what you want, they work better (although you can replicate nordic levels of happiness if you break it down to state by state -- ironically, states historically influenced by Scandinavians like Minnesota and the Dakotas rank in the top 5)

Im not American, but i absolutely love the american systems of a reduced net but more of my income in my pocket.
 
ahoy JTF,

Denmark has the fastest rate of concentration of wealth, Sweden's gini coefficient has been rising at the fastest rate in the developed nation -- nords model may be slipping if equality is their game.

if wealth is massing at the top, that is to say, if financial inequality is on the march in Denmark, it's not really a concern at the moment, is it?

its Gini coefficient was at .25 in 2015. the most "equal" country on the planet.

The happiness rankings are pretty subjective and nebulous IMO -- but yeah, if security is what you want, they work better (although you can replicate nordic levels of happiness if you break it down to state by state -- ironically, states historically influenced by Scandinavians like Minnesota and the Dakotas rank in the top 5)

financial security isn't a big thing for me, personally, but i have to figure if you don't have it, it must be a nettlesome worry to carry around daily.

from my distant POV, the generous pension system that the Danes have paid handsomely into seems to guarantee a gentle journey into old age, financially.

must be nice, no?

Im not American, but i absolutely love the american systems of a reduced net but more of my income in my pocket.

i'm American. with all the tax cuts going on, and all the spending that's coupled with it...i....errrrr....hope the scam lasts until i'm done living.

- IGIT
 
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More household debt?

Murkans and Danes are graduating college with about the same income and Murkans are paying 500$/month for healthcare with 5k deductibles and making student loan payments of 200$ /month. Danes are graduating with no student loan or healthcare payments. So how does that make the Murkan system better?

Yeah, way more household debt

https://data.oecd.org/chart/5rzB

So yeah, Americans pay more out of pocket for post secondary and healthcare - but that is offset by having way lower costs for food, clothing, housing, transportation, hydro, gas -- etc. So thats the difference, you're paying less for post secondary and healtcare (not really because you're taxed heavily from your pay) but you're also paying more for daily needs.

Why are the Danes household debt higher when they dont have to pay for healthcare and education? Cost of living!


Acoording to the UN Human Development Report, Denmark ranks #2 on the Education Index whereas Murka ranks around 8.
They have better k-12 education but you said they are more educated when in fact the US turns out more college graduates. The US even spends way more per student, so the K-12 rankings are skewed by other metrics


Because theyre not paying 500$ a month for insurance with a 5k deductible or a 3k deductible, or paying 200$ a month for their student loan payments. Obama even said his biggest expense was his student loan payments. Danes graduate debt-free and have more discretionary income.




Danes have higher VAT taxes on beer and cigarettes but Murkan healthcare and education is much more expensive and crippling.

So I guess if you think beer and cigs are more important than healthcare or education for a society you might have a case.

Yes, but the Danes are also paying significantly higher in housing, rent, food, clothing, cars, gas, utilities - its not just beer and cigs -- do i think all that other stuff is as equally or more important than healthcare, hell yes.

All that results after tax, and expense -- the US per person on a median scales, comes out with more wealth.
 
More household debt?

Murkans and Danes are graduating college with about the same income and Murkans are paying 500$/month for healthcare with 5k deductibles and making student loan payments of 200$ /month. Danes are graduating with no student loan or healthcare payments. So how does that make the Murkan system better?







Acoording to the UN Human Development Report, Denmark ranks #2 on the Education Index whereas Murka ranks around 8.





Because theyre not paying 500$ a month for insurance with a 5k deductible or a 3k deductible, or paying 200$ a month for their student loan payments. Obama even said his biggest expense was his student loan payments. Danes graduate debt-free and have more discretionary income.



Danes have higher VAT taxes on beer and cigarettes but Murkan healthcare and education is much more expensive and crippling.

So I guess if you think beer and cigs are more important than healthcare or education for a society you might have a case.
Until they have lived in a country with really good social programs they will not be able to comprehend how much better it is in every conceivable way unless you pull over 120,000 or so a year in the us.

They don't make the connection to higher crime rates, stress over having to be an expert at everything etc.
 
ahoy JTF,



if wealth is massing at the top, that is to say, if financial inequality is on the march in Denmark, it's not really a concern at the moment, is it?

its Gini coefficient was at .25 in 2015. the most "equal" country on the planet.

So you're being myopic about it -- thats like saying global warming isnt impacting me now, so its not a concern at the moment.



financial security isn't a big thing for me, personally, but i have to figure if you don't have it, it must be a nettlesome worry to carry around daily.

from my distant POV, the generous pension system that the Danes have paid handsomely into seems to guarantee a gentle journey into old age, financially.

must be nice, no?

I personally rather the lower cost of living and access to more of my own income and base my future retirement plan under my own accord.



i'm American. with all the tax cuts going on, and all the spending that's coupled with it...i....errrrr....hope the scam lasts until i'm done living.

- IGIT

I agree, the continued spending is not a good trajectory.
 
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