How important is athleticism in the UFC?

[CrimsonFan]

Depends how you think of it. Mighty Mouse is "unathletic" and is only able to compete because MMA handicaps for his athletic weaknesses. Fedor is small enough to be considered "unathletic" at HW, which is the only division that doesn't handicap for the weakness of being small. He has great attributes in speed, power, reflexes, etc. but size is an attribute of athleticism and Fedor is a 0 in it. Fedor is an example of skill overcoming athleticism.

Fedor was the most athletic HW ive ever seen

 

[Lemmy Caution]

No but Ali was extremely Fluid..and who knows maybe he did have a respectable vertical and 40 yard dash time. Fluidity is part of athleticism GSP is not a vary fluid fighter imo he is an elite specimen of a human with elite MMA wrestling passable striking and decent BJJ for a black belt i'm sorry his BJJ is not impressive...of course he'd choke me unconscious to the point where i shat on my self.

A famous hockey trainer, when asked which is the most important skill, said smoothness. Smoothness allows you to turn, switch direction, etc. a little bit faster.

 

[bad_k]

I never said this. If you read my original post, you notice I pointed out that higher level skill can overcome greater athleticism and a lower skill level. I pointed out Marquez VS Pacquiao as an example of that. Now with that said, the fact remains that when Skill/Technique are closer, as they can be taught, then athleticism, size, and all these other innate attributes take over. (I include Fight IQ, with Skill/Technique, since you are learning skills from your coach.)

Those examples you posted don't disprove anything. All the fighters you listed have a different level of skill/athleticism.

If you want proof that a fighter can be taught to overcome someone who is better, why don't you look at GSP VS Hughes 1 and 2 or any other fight where the fighter who lost the first fight won in the rematch. Sports history agrees with me.

No, everything can be taught,trained and coached for the better and this includes athleticism.

Any team can make an athlete run faster, get stronger and jump higher etc this should not be so hard to understand.

Now does this mean all athletes will have the same level of athleticism? No

Any team can teach an athlete technique and skills.

Now does this mean all athletes will have the same level of technique and skills? No

This sums it up

 

[josh345]

I love Machida because an old long past full contact 80's Karate guy he brought us back to relevance for a short time. that said the man has almost zero athleticism.. i think that's why at the tip of the spear even with everybody including himself juicing he started to lose.

Machida has a better gas tank, better striking and better BJJ than Yoel Romero.. it was the canyon sized gap in athleticism that cause him to get destroyed in that fight.

I think that's a lot of what Wonderboy is running up against when he has to go with Woodley a guy who's just athletically on a different planet

Machida is athletic you tard. The guy was VERY fast with his blitzes in his prime and routinely KOs people with jumping front kicks. Great at evading strikes. His style was very reliant on speed and reflexes(core components of athleticism). So speed and reflexes aren't a part of being athletic?

 

[Jack Handy jr]

I think he worked hard but I don't think he was a very good natural athlete, he had no explosion at all and just looked uncoordinated

I mean OK but being herky jerky and uncoordinated pretty much is the antithesis of a natural athlete mang

 

[Deleted member 290675]

Athleticism is really sport-specific. You can be a great swimmer but a shit boxer.

 

[Jack Handy jr]

No doubt you have to be athletic to do any sport. There is just certain levels to it and it comes in different forms (Strength, Explosion, Endurance etc.). Only a few have the whole package (LeBron, Westbrook, Bo Jackson, Aaron Donald). But Your Skill/Assets towards what you do is the main important thing. Just remember Stephen Curry can't even dunk a basketball and he's widely considered a top 3 basketball player in the world

seriously curry cant dunk?!?!?

anyway I just think that when you have a genetic edge at the highest level of a sport it gives you an edge Jordan Burroughs is a phenomenal wrestler very technical...but is he more technical than Kyle Dake imho.... no...the reason Burroughs owns Dake is because of the Grand Canyon sized Gap in athleticism

and don't think im being complimentary racist and saying all west African blacks and their descendants are great athletes I don't think Quinton Jackson, Cheick Kongo, or ovince st preaux are very athletic...but all three have arguably had better overall success in MMA then Kevin Randleman(a legend) and Uriah Hall who I think were/are ridiculously athletic

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Nice to have, but not necessary. A level athletes often don't have many challenges to overcome in life. Especially while growing up. Things come easy for those kinds of guys.

The great fighters usually had to deal with a large amount of adversity in those same years. Probably got picked on or bullied by those same kind of guys. Fedor isn't considered a level, but his mind and work ethic is. Probably due to overcoming adversity.

Matt Brown fought for his life at one point after years of partying and a heroin overdose. Things like that can make a person stronger if they allow it to. Gsp happens to be a level combined with overcoming adversity. That combo can create a monster.

solid take

 

[TRVITMVNZ]

seriously curry cant dunk?!?!?

anyway I just think that when you have a genetic edge at the highest level of a sport it gives you an edge Jordan Burroughs is a phenomenal wrestler very technical...but is he more technical than Kyle Dake imho.... no...the reason Burroughs owns Dake is because of the Grand Canyon sized Gap in athleticism

and don't think im being complimentary racist and saying all west African blacks and their descendants are great athletes I don't think Quinton Jackson, Cheick Kongo, or ovince st preaux are very athletic...but all three have arguably had better overall success in MMA then Kevin Randleman(a legend) and Uriah Hall who I think were/are ridiculously athletic

He just doesnt have the hops. He has maybe 2-3 at the most

 

[Jack Handy jr]

The thing is Tony's boxing and wrestling aren't particularly good, and his jiu-jitsu isn't that much better than Anthony (if it even is). It's not like we're seeing a huge technical gap here, and Anthony's biggest weaknesses aren't really getting exposed here.

Athleticism is important though. Especially in the larger divisions that lack it. However, you've still got to be a fighter. You've still got to have skill.

Tony is a very competent to good wrestler that lacks the athleticism to land a good blast double or single on relatively elite MMA wrestlers. He does have better hands than Pettis

Pettis is a notch below Olympic Level Tae Kwon Do skill the dexterity in his feet are better than some guys hands.

Tony is the Far superior over all Grappler...that said in all honesty I never saw Pettis subbing Melendez in a thousand epochs, so its possible...btw just because you catch a guy in a heel hook or guillotine doesn't necessarily mean you are the superior grappler..I still Think Gil Melendez overall is the Far superior Submission Grappler

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Well, one of the prime attributes of athleticism is coordination (ask any coach of any major professional sport and they'll go on and on about just how vital being coordinated is for a high level athlete), and coordination is vital for striking and takedowns.

Almost as important an attribute of athleticism is timing (again, talk to pro-coaches and they'll tell you just how important timing is in everything from basketball to soccer to hockey to baseball to football), and again for striking and takedowns timing is vital.

So athleticism, especially coordination and timing, is important in MMA.

so you agree with my take on Pettis V Fergie on paper?

 

[Kertol]

No such thing as the term athletic. Each sport constitutes different standards of “athleticism”

 

[Jack Handy jr]

Brock Lesnar the greatest part time fighter of all time and showed what can be achieved with pure athleticism: UFC Gold & NCAA.

Brocktober bebe

big ole school pro wrestling fan and in that realm I don't have a problem at all with Lesnar juicing.

But for some one who has trained against guys I outweighed by a lot when they were cycling you could tell. I wont name drop but I've trained with UFC, and Bellator guys in the past and when you cant even move a guy's arm because he's so roided to the gills that's telling.
Now Brock is a genetic mutant to begin with. Farm chores from sun up to sun down. football, weightlifter, wrestler...and absolutely ridiculously...hilariously roided to the Gills for most of if not all his adult life.

IMHO his steroid usage negates a lot of what he's done in the NCAA's and the UFC..
Pro wrestling, movies, I don't have a problem with guys like stallone, or bautista, using gear to get shredded or jacked for entertainment purposes Juice a way its not real.

But as soon as I saw Brock step in the Cage Against Hunt...I mean he looked like a GD 80's era HE-MAN toy

 

[SeattleFightFan]

Looking at the Pettis V Ferguson match up i noticed a lot of guys giving Pettis a chance though Tony is clearly the better wrestler, Bjj guy, and Boxer.

Pettis is +255. "a lot of guys" always give 3-1 underdogs a chance, even though they're 3-1 underdogs.

so i guess my answer is "yes, athleticism plays a big part in the UFC". but this question isn't necessarily pertinent to a bunch of folks rooting for the underdog.

 

[Brock-B-level-Athlete]

big ole school pro wrestling fan and in that realm I don't have a problem at all with Lesnar juicing.

But for some one who has trained against guys I outweighed by a lot when they were cycling you could tell. I wont name drop but I've trained with UFC, and Bellator guys in the past and when you cant even move a guy's arm because he's so roided to the gills that's telling.
Now Brock is a genetic mutant to begin with. Farm chores from sun up to sun down. football, weightlifter, wrestler...and absolutely ridiculously...hilariously roided to the Gills for most of if not all his adult life.

IMHO his steroid usage negates a lot of what he's done in the NCAA's and the UFC..
Pro wrestling, movies, I don't have a problem with guys like stallone, or bautista, using gear to get shredded or jacked for entertainment purposes Juice a way its not real.

But as soon as I saw Brock step in the Cage Against Hunt...I mean he looked like a GD 80's era HE-MAN toy

Brock Lesnar is the greatest part time fighter of all time.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Jones at 6'4 84" reach can't dunk a basketball, this is the guy most consider to be the best ever in combat sports

Most people can't grasp the fact that athleticism is not a make or break deal for fighting.

Dunking a basketball is as much a learned skill as throwing a proper punch.

 

[AnotherOldGuy]

Athleticism is more important for the simple fact that skill/technique can be taught but athleticism cannot. Coaches can teach skills/technique. You can learn BJJ, kickboxing, boxing, you can learn the martial arts. Coaches can't teach athleticism. You can't teach a fighter to have fast twitch muscle fibers and be explosive.You can't teach speed. You can't teach reflexes. You can't teach Power. You gotta be born with it.



But at the same time, a fighter can have great technique/skills and overcome great athleticism + very good skill/technique. I look at boxers like Marquez and Pacquiao, where Pacquiao was clearly the better athlete but Marquez was better technically which allowed him to compete with Pacquiao.

The ability to apply skills at a high level is tied to the nervous system, to your inherent coordination and timing. And those are both parts of athleticism - in fact most high level coaches will say coordination and timing are the two most important aspects of athleticism.

Most of us could never develop the skill that say someone like Michael Jordan had with a basketball, or Wayne Gretzky had with a puck, simply because we lack the coordination and timing - that is, we lack the athleticism.

But as tenniswhiz pointed out, athleticism is sport specific. The aspects of athleticism most important for say basketball are different than the aspects for the 100 m sprint are different than for Olympic swimming are different than for MMA. There's no single mix of athletic traits that's universally best for all sports.

And beyond that, most coaches of professional teams seem to say that the mental aspect (coolness under pressure, willingness to train hard and intelligently and so on) is as important as athleticism (coordination, timing, explosiveness, stamina etc). Though I like the way Yogi Berra put it - half of baseball is 90% mental.

 

[Takamine86]

No, everything can be taught,trained and coached for the better and this includes athleticism.

Any team can make an athlete run faster, get stronger and jump higher etc this should not be so hard to understand.

Now does this mean all athletes will have the same level of athleticism? No

Any team can teach an athlete technique and skills.

Now does this mean all athletes will have the same level of technique and skills? No

This sums it up

The technique/skill and or knowledge that is given to you by a coach is obtainable by everyone. If a coach is teaching a class of people the same thing, the same amount of knowledge can be acquired by everyone in that class. Even if some pick it up slower, they can eventually obtain the same amount of knowledge, they aren't limited. Everyone has the same ceiling because knowledge is something that is being passed on through teaching rather than something that is innate.

Athleticism however is something that is innate. Everyone has a different ceiling, because each individual human being is different. You can't teach Nick Diaz to be more athletic than GSP, no matter how hard Nick Diaz trains, he could never match GSP's athleticism. He can never be as explosive as GSP. But you can teach both of them the same amount of knowledge in terms of Martial Arts. If both GSP and Nick Diaz had the same coaches all their lives and the coach consistently taught them both the same exact thing until both got it down. All the knowledge/skills/technique taught from that coach can be passed on the both fighters. Now their ability to apply those skills would be separated by their innate differences.

We will have to agree to disagree because fundamentally, we don't agree.

 

[bad_k]

The technique/skill and or knowledge that is given to you by a coach is obtainable by everyone. If a coach is teaching a class of people the same thing, the same amount of knowledge can be acquired by everyone in that class. Even if some pick it up slower, they can eventually obtain the same amount of knowledge, they aren't limited. Everyone has the same ceiling because knowledge is something that is being passed on through teaching rather than something that is innate.

Athleticism however is something that is innate. Everyone has a different ceiling, because each individual human being is different. You can't teach Nick Diaz to be more athletic than GSP, no matter how hard Nick Diaz trains, he could never match GSP's athleticism. He can never be as explosive as GSP. But you can teach both of them the same amount of knowledge in terms of Martial Arts. If both GSP and Nick Diaz had the same coaches all their lives and the coach consistently taught them both the same exact thing until both got it down. All the knowledge/skills/technique taught from that coach can be passed on the both fighters. Now their ability to apply those skills would be separated by their innate differences.

We will have to agree to disagree because fundamentally, we don't agree.

I am open to agree to disagree but at a fundamental level you are simply incorrect.

The technique/skills and knowledge that are given to you by a coach is absolutely NOT obtained and utilized equally to the same students that are being taught.

With your reasoning everyone in the same math class would get exactly same grades in tests if they put effort into it. This will never happen.

There is a thing called IQ and natural sense. Everyone will always be at a different level even if trained and taught under the same roof.

If you want to say athleticism can't be taught then neither can fight IQ and fight sense/awareness.

Even in your GSP/Diaz comparison this applies. Same way Nick can never out-jump or out-lift GSP, GSP can never out pace Diaz in a triathlon race, marathon race, cycling race etc

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

I love Machida because an old long past full contact 80's Karate guy he brought us back to relevance for a short time. that said the man has almost zero athleticism.. i think that's why at the tip of the spear even with everybody including himself juicing he started to lose.

Machida has a better gas tank, better striking and better BJJ than Yoel Romero.. it was the canyon sized gap in athleticism that cause him to get destroyed in that fight.

I think that's a lot of what Wonderboy is running up against when he has to go with Woodley a guy who's just athletically on a different planet

Machida in his prime was very fast and fluid. He also hit hard. He's athletic but just in different ways. He was out of his prime against romero and unlike romero won the belt.