how good were the bjj black belts of yore?

[blanko]

Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?

cus the top 1% is still the top 1% pele would still be the man today, so would wilt chamerlain and connie hawkins. Guys don't throw any harder in baseball/cricket today than the hardest throwers 40~50 years ago. What changes however is the average/slightly above average competitor.

 

[kimurense]

Why are guys like Royler or Rickson, who learned from these old codgers so awesome? Many would say, and definitely more provable in Royler's case, the match for any of today's generation. All they had was other "old school" grapplers to roll with in a sport that was barely on the map when they were coming up? I think they may have had a stricter, superior teaching that comes with their family intensive situation and is pretty damn hard to find outside the Gracies, even then with the growth of the family its doubtful that the careful formation of fighters will be as good as time goes on. I wonder how long we'll get Rogers and so forth or if the gracie tradition may get lax.

I'm not saying this is spot on...it isn't, I know. But I think your answer is too simple. Something has to explain why these relatively "old" second generation guys are so awesome.

I don't think royler was that orthodox, he rarely uses closed guard, he uses a lot of sitting guard (dunno the name in english). He was one of the 1st old school guy to develop BJJ into other horizons and the teacher of world beaters like saulo, xande and others. he didn't stik with what was tought on him, he improved it and developed his own style. That is in essence why I say new school of BJJ (which he is a part of) would probably win against old school. Not taking anything away from the old school guys, but the amount of top athletes to roll with in the old days wasn't half as big as the amount of top class people royler had a chance to roll with.. you are only as good as the people u test yourself with

 

[Tookish]

ok, why is bjj any different than any other sport? How would a champ boxer from the 20's do today? Football? Any athletic endevour? I cannot see how any athlete from a previous era could hope to compete with the current generation. Can anyone name a single other athletic event in which this would even be a discussion?

 

[Calvo]

ok, why is bjj any different than any other sport? How would a champ boxer from the 20's do today? Football? Any athletic endevour? I cannot see how any athlete from a previous era could hope to compete with the current generation. Can anyone name a single other athletic event in which this would even be a discussion?

Highschool wrestling.

 

[whipyourasstyle]

i mean guys from the 1930s-1980s

ie;

helio, carlos , rolls, carlson etc. how good would they have been compared to the average bjj black belt of today? the world class guys of today?

As with all sports. The best of the current generation of players/participants are the best of all time.

Athletes are always getting stronger, and faster. They are eating better, using better supplements, they are training better, more effective. And this leads to better competition, and thus a better and more diverse skill set. This goes for all sports, it's nice to think that the hero's of yore would stand with the giants of today but it is just not the case.

For example in the NFL walter payton was an animal, the best running back of all time (arguably). But if you put him in the game today (via time travel) he wouldn't be half as good as he was then. Now if that same person was RAISED in todays environment and trained with todays athletes then YES he COULD be as good as or better than todays players.

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

All sports have this debate about how legends of yore would do compared to today's stars. Inevitably the older generation will have more hype than the newer one because of the story telling that we all hear. However, today's stars benefit from latest advancements in technique, training, instruction etc... not to mention that they draw from and compete against a much larger talent pool than the old timers.

I have no doubt that the older generation of BJJ legends were masters at the basics. This doesn't mean that they are necessarily better than today's stars. The beauty of BJJ is that it's constantly evolving and progressing. The really old guys didn't have the triangle (introduced to BJJ in late 1970's) or even the kimura (introduced to BJJ after Helio's loss to kimura). There's the implication that the newer guys (especially ones with unorthodox games) are somehow inferior to the older guys. Yet the older guys who have unconventional games never get mentioned in this conversation: Gordo (revolutionized half-guard), Royler (played mainly butterfly guard), De la Riva (created his own open guard style) and many more that I'm forgetting. They were undoubtedly unorthodox yet were successful against their more "traditional" brethren.

When asked about how well he does rolling with Carlos Gracie Jr. (in the Gracie Barra documentary), Marcio Feitosa said that he doesn't do well against Carlinhos with "old school" moves like closed guard. Its's mainly with the newer moves/positions in BJJ that the protege is finally able to best his teacher.

I have nothing but respect for the older generation of BJJ legends and competitors. However, I feel that today's stars would, at the very least, hold their own against their predecessors.

 

[Slithers]

I have nothing but respect for the older generation of BJJ legends and competitors. However, I feel that today's stars would, at the very least, hold their own against their predecessors.

Well thought out argument Mutt, I agree with a lot of what you said. However, I would argue that your closing statement could be said in reverse, as well.

"I have nothing but respect for the newer generation of BJJ legends and competitors. However, I feel that yesterday's stars would, at very least, hold their own against their descendants. "

No doubt if the oldies had NO exposure to today's competitors' styles and games, they would be surprised by it in a live roll. But Today's competitors DO have exposure to the oldies' styles and games. They are not entering 'blind,' so to speak.

Given a certain amount of time and exposure to today's styles and games, I am confident the oldies would adapt, modify, and guide their own styles and games for the better.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Sports evolve. Its nice to think the old guys would win on solid fundamentals, whether in BJJ or football or any sport you care to mention. But what happens is that newer generations build up on the skills given them by older generations. Its why every physics grad student can today solve problems Newton couldn't even start on (quantum mechanics, electro-magnetics etc), though Newton was arguably one of the greatest scientific geniuses of all time.

I think the old timers would be pissed off if newer generations weren't building up on what they'd discovered - your discipline is dying if its standing still or even regressing (ie newer generations being able to do less with it than their predecessors).

You get this argument in every sport, but in every measured sport (track, weightlifting etc) performances are improving.

QFT. Roger Federer would destroy Patrick McEnroe.

 

[Sherdog_Mutt]

Given a certain amount of time and exposure to today's styles and games, I am confident the oldies would adapt, modify, and guide their own styles and games for the better.

I agree with you 100% re: technique.

Another factor that gets lost in the discussion, is that today's stars (by and large) have a huge physical advantage over their predecessors (during the old timer's prime) due to better nutrition, training, and natural athleticism (due to larger talent pool that BJJ is now drawing from).

 

[Slithers]

Another factor that gets lost in the discussion, is that today's stars (by and large) have a huge physical advantage over their predecessors (during the old timer's prime) due to better nutrition, training, and natural athleticism (due to larger talent pool that BJJ is now drawing from).

Assuming they 'time travel' to fight day I can't help but agree. Still I wonder exactly how much difference it would make.

Let's say they time travel here 6 months before the competition, though. Couldn't nutrition and training also be modified as they saw fit? I am willing to bet not much would be changed due to stubbornness and/or tradition, but if they were convinced to change their diet/training according to today's standards, then natural athleticism is the only thing separating the two opponents.

Isn't this true of 2 new-school opponents facing each other? Both fighters have exposure to today's technical, nutritional, and training developments. The playing field is level not counting natural athletic ability. Then if natural athletic ability were the only determining factor, the more gifted athlete would win every time. This, however, doesn't appear to be true.

From my point of view, although today's competitors come from a larger talent pool and are likely to be more naturally gifted athletically, I am not so sure that it would matter as much as some of us think. If an O.G. fighter time travels to fight day, he will have no exposure to today and will probably lose based on this 'handicap'/disadvantage, not based on his skill. But time travel to 6 months before fight day and its a fair fight. best man wins. my 2

 

[HSakurai]

Rigan can still go against the best grapplers of today and tap em. Pe De Pano, Gab Gonzaga, etc. Roger still calls him Professor. The problem is, he can only last for like 20 minutes before he gets tired and rolls into a corner. True story.

 

[Kuark]

yea but rolls died when rickson was like 18~20...

its my understanding that Rolls death is what motivated Rickson to really start training hard and pushed him to the next level

 

[Cash Bill 52]

Twenty years from now the top guys will be better than Marcello and Roger.

I agree with georgejjr. Everyone stands on the shoulders of their ancestors.

If Rolles was alive today (and 25) how would he do?

If Newton were alive today could he solve quantum gravity?

 

[JerseyTrash]

I think of it like Royce vs Matt Hughes.

 

[BeRGLeZ]

I tend to think that as sports evolve, the level of skill will improve. BJJ has evolved similarly.

 

[ShanghaiBJJ]

Wow, truly disagree with the way this thread is being discussed.

1) It' s kind of a stupid argument in the first place

2) People bringing up other sports such as running or baseball should also name some of the pharmaceutical companies involved in this improvement in results.

3) BJJ is a sport that is highly personal, so to say someone like Rolls had an old school game with old school moves only should get his head examined. For Christ Sake, he was the guy that started cross training into Sambo and Wrestling!
So everyone now and then developed their game to their needs and tailored to their strengths.

4) Thus when such a comparison is made you need to look at the individual. So who are we to say who is/ was better? Maybe Marcelo sweeps the shit out of Rolls with X Guard, because Rolls has never seen this before (Maybe he has, ever think of that?)
or Marcelo doesn't even get there, because Rolls' awareness and execution of the basics is at such a high level that Marcelo can't play his game.

So in the end they are/ were all gifted individuals that devoted their life to the art and lived and breathed jiu jitsu.
To say todays players are better just because the old guys didn't have youtube to check the newest flashy/ crazy move??? PLEASE....

They had Gogo plata like moves in Judo back in the really old days!

And on the topic, here is what Tony Eduardo Lima, the new instructor at Shanghai BJJ has to say about a similar topic:

Nowadays people are always talking about “old school” BJJ and “new school” BJJ, do you think there is such a thing and what are your thoughts on it?

I don’t believe there is such a thing. It goes against the philosophy of BJJ. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu was founded on being open minded. That’s why and how the Gracie family was able to develop it. They allowed this collaboration of students to build and manipulate a new Jiu-jitsu. So, by saying this is new or old school BJJ sounds inappropriate.

www.bjj-asia.com

B

 

[Spoonman7]

Rigan can still go against the best grapplers of today and tap em. Pe De Pano, Gab Gonzaga, etc. Roger still calls him Professor. The problem is, he can only last for like 20 minutes before he gets tired and rolls into a corner. True story.

I have hears that about Rigan being able to submit younger BB's. It doesn't suprise em that he gasses either, he is a big guy.

 

[hocky]

c'mon: jacare,roger,marcelo,cobrinha,would smoke those oldtimers...like any other progressive sport,todays guys are bigger,stronger, faster...

 

[-Jonny-]

People bring up other sports; I remember watching a video of Michael Jordan practicing with the Bobcats and basically tearing them up. Didn't he also come out of retirement in a new era of basketball (with new rules, players, etc.) and average 20 a game?

I don't see how it would be any different with BJJ. The guys who were good in one time period would always be good in the other (if given the equal opportunity).

 

[BJJisFUN]

I think it's worth mentioning that today, tournaments and world competition seems to matter more than it did back in the day. Competitors today have a goal in mind, such as the Mundials, and they no doubt focus their training for that one day. From what I understand, the old-timers had people of other disciplines come in and challenge them at any time, and they were ready to fight with punches, kicks, headbutts, etc. If I'm not mistaken, this was the reason for the development of the Gracie diet. They wanted to find the right combination of foods so that they were ready to fight at any time. I'm sure that if competitions were as important back in the day as they are now, the "old-timers" would have focused more on those competitions and been ready to kick some ass on fight day.