how good were the bjj black belts of yore?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by gracie_barra**, Mar 17, 2008.

  1. gracie_barra**

    gracie_barra** Purple Belt

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    i mean guys from the 1930s-1980s

    ie;

    helio, carlos , rolls, carlson etc. how good would they have been compared to the average bjj black belt of today? the world class guys of today?
     
  2. Darth Shlong

    Darth Shlong District World Champion

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    they would tap these young bucks left and right with solid fundamentals
     
  3. kimurense

    kimurense Brown Belt

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    let's not forget lot's of things hadn't been invented/created/improved when these guys were around, all the rubber guard, half guard, triangles, spider guard.. it is a lot of info that they skipped back in the day. They were tough mofo's with really good skill set of the basic movements and stuff, but I don't see them rolling with top competition (marcelinho, roger, jean jaques, leozinho, shaolin, etc). the sport has evolved a lot throughout the years.. tough guys no doubt, and hard core black belts
     
  4. blanko

    blanko Guest

    let me put it this way.. if they get you in their closed guard you are toast.
     
  5. GroundWorkz

    GroundWorkz Blue Belt

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    I would tend to agree.
     
  6. Ghosted-Barra

    Ghosted-Barra Orange Belt

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    You could easily compare Roger Gracie to the list of older names you mentioned, and we all know how well he does with todays competition.
     
  7. Samurai Jack

    Samurai Jack faixa roxa

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    Flavio Almeida said that Rolls used to tap Rickson with one hand tucked behind his belt.
     
  8. blanko

    blanko Guest

    yea but rolls died when rickson was like 18~20...
     
  9. jasond

    jasond Purple Belt

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    Agreed.
     
  10. Slithers

    Slithers Green Belt

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    all of which can be defeated with solid basics.

    Sorry, but the O.G.'s would whoop.
     
  11. kimurense

    kimurense Brown Belt

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    yes, but if they were created, is because the sport evolved and people started creating different styles to nullify the more traditional games. If they didn't work they wouldn't be so widely used. That's not to say that a more traditional fighter wouldn't kill someone with an unorthodox style.. We all see what a less then orthodox fighter can do in a competition if he know how to use his stuff right (just look at margarida, marcelinho, shaolin, leo vieira, roleta, gordo, soneca, soca, nino shembri, royler, de la riva... just to name a few)
     
  12. kimurense

    kimurense Brown Belt

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    sorry I ment leo santos not leo vieira...
     
  13. LordarshynBJJ

    LordarshynBJJ Blue Belt

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    I see it this way..

    Once in a while the newer generation is going to catch them off guard and get them with something that hasn't really been "invented" yet/something they've never seen.

    Every once in a while they will get them with skill, as some of the newer generation is amazingly good.

    however 99 out of 100 times, the Originals are going to do exactly as everyone else has said, and tap the shit out of the new guys with solid fundamentals.
     
  14. blanko

    blanko Guest

    I think it all depends on who pulls guard first. IF the oldies pull closed guard i would say oldies.. if one of the newer generation guys pulled guard and threw up all the variants of guards/sweeps that we have now.. shit game over.
     
  15. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Sports evolve. Its nice to think the old guys would win on solid fundamentals, whether in BJJ or football or any sport you care to mention. But what happens is that newer generations build up on the skills given them by older generations. Its why every physics grad student can today solve problems Newton couldn't even start on (quantum mechanics, electro-magnetics etc), though Newton was arguably one of the greatest scientific geniuses of all time.

    I think the old timers would be pissed off if newer generations weren't building up on what they'd discovered - your discipline is dying if its standing still or even regressing (ie newer generations being able to do less with it than their predecessors).

    You get this argument in every sport, but in every measured sport (track, weightlifting etc) performances are improving.
     
  16. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    There is something scary about the way the oldies do basics. I know this isn't a Rickson-included thread, but I was watching a video of him rolling with Royler on dailymotion, it's grainy, but still...when he throws up this triangle and nails it perfectly, I still can't fucking figure out how he did it. Both arms in...then Royler is triangled. I pause, rewind...nothing. Royler is safe, then triangled. Maybe he did voodoo.
     
  17. DaRuckus337

    DaRuckus337 Black Belt

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    Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?
     
  18. TKMaxx715

    TKMaxx715 saggy pants

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    agreed
     
  19. B0l0joe

    B0l0joe Brown Belt

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    exactly. Sure, flaws come with evolution, but it brings gret benefits too. It's like trial and error over several years, with practictioners inventing new, yet effective techniques.
     
  20. wildcard_seven

    wildcard_seven Purple Belt

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    Why are guys like Royler or Rickson, who learned from these old codgers so awesome? Many would say, and definitely more provable in Royler's case, the match for any of today's generation. All they had was other "old school" grapplers to roll with in a sport that was barely on the map when they were coming up? I think they may have had a stricter, superior teaching that comes with their family intensive situation and is pretty damn hard to find outside the Gracies, even then with the growth of the family its doubtful that the careful formation of fighters will be as good as time goes on. I wonder how long we'll get Rogers and so forth or if the gracie tradition may get lax.

    I'm not saying this is spot on...it isn't, I know. But I think your answer is too simple. Something has to explain why these relatively "old" second generation guys are so awesome.
     

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