how good were the bjj black belts of yore?

[gracie_barra**]

i mean guys from the 1930s-1980s

ie;

helio, carlos , rolls, carlson etc. how good would they have been compared to the average bjj black belt of today? the world class guys of today?

 

[Darth Shlong]

they would tap these young bucks left and right with solid fundamentals

 

[kimurense]

let's not forget lot's of things hadn't been invented/created/improved when these guys were around, all the rubber guard, half guard, triangles, spider guard.. it is a lot of info that they skipped back in the day. They were tough mofo's with really good skill set of the basic movements and stuff, but I don't see them rolling with top competition (marcelinho, roger, jean jaques, leozinho, shaolin, etc). the sport has evolved a lot throughout the years.. tough guys no doubt, and hard core black belts

 

[blanko]

let me put it this way.. if they get you in their closed guard you are toast.

 

[GroundWorkz]

they would tap these young bucks left and right with solid fundamentals

I would tend to agree.

 

[Ghosted-Barra]

You could easily compare Roger Gracie to the list of older names you mentioned, and we all know how well he does with todays competition.

 

[Samurai Jack]

Flavio Almeida said that Rolls used to tap Rickson with one hand tucked behind his belt.

 

[blanko]

yea but rolls died when rickson was like 18~20...

 

[jasond]

they would tap these young bucks left and right with solid fundamentals

Agreed.

 

[Slithers]

let's not forget lot's of things hadn't been invented/created/improved when these guys were around, all the rubber guard, half guard, triangles, spider guard..

all of which can be defeated with solid basics.

Sorry, but the O.G.'s would whoop.

 

[kimurense]

all of which can be defeated with solid basics.

Sorry, but the O.G.'s would whoop.

yes, but if they were created, is because the sport evolved and people started creating different styles to nullify the more traditional games. If they didn't work they wouldn't be so widely used. That's not to say that a more traditional fighter wouldn't kill someone with an unorthodox style.. We all see what a less then orthodox fighter can do in a competition if he know how to use his stuff right (just look at margarida, marcelinho, shaolin, leo vieira, roleta, gordo, soneca, soca, nino shembri, royler, de la riva... just to name a few)

 

[kimurense]

sorry I ment leo santos not leo vieira...

 

[LordarshynBJJ]

I see it this way..

Once in a while the newer generation is going to catch them off guard and get them with something that hasn't really been "invented" yet/something they've never seen.

Every once in a while they will get them with skill, as some of the newer generation is amazingly good.

however 99 out of 100 times, the Originals are going to do exactly as everyone else has said, and tap the shit out of the new guys with solid fundamentals.

 

[blanko]

I think it all depends on who pulls guard first. IF the oldies pull closed guard i would say oldies.. if one of the newer generation guys pulled guard and threw up all the variants of guards/sweeps that we have now.. shit game over.

 

[georgejjr]

Sports evolve. Its nice to think the old guys would win on solid fundamentals, whether in BJJ or football or any sport you care to mention. But what happens is that newer generations build up on the skills given them by older generations. Its why every physics grad student can today solve problems Newton couldn't even start on (quantum mechanics, electro-magnetics etc), though Newton was arguably one of the greatest scientific geniuses of all time.

I think the old timers would be pissed off if newer generations weren't building up on what they'd discovered - your discipline is dying if its standing still or even regressing (ie newer generations being able to do less with it than their predecessors).

You get this argument in every sport, but in every measured sport (track, weightlifting etc) performances are improving.

 

[wildcard_seven]

There is something scary about the way the oldies do basics. I know this isn't a Rickson-included thread, but I was watching a video of him rolling with Royler on dailymotion, it's grainy, but still...when he throws up this triangle and nails it perfectly, I still can't fucking figure out how he did it. Both arms in...then Royler is triangled. I pause, rewind...nothing. Royler is safe, then triangled. Maybe he did voodoo.

 

[DaRuckus337]

Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?

 

[TKMaxx715]

Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?

agreed

 

[B0l0joe]

Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?

exactly. Sure, flaws come with evolution, but it brings gret benefits too. It's like trial and error over several years, with practictioners inventing new, yet effective techniques.

 

[wildcard_seven]

Why would the old guys - all pulled from a relatively small talent pool and practicing a raw and burgeoning sport - be superior to the new guys who come from a larger talent pool and have the benefit of learning from the many variations and innovations that have come as a result of the growth of the sport?

Why are guys like Royler or Rickson, who learned from these old codgers so awesome? Many would say, and definitely more provable in Royler's case, the match for any of today's generation. All they had was other "old school" grapplers to roll with in a sport that was barely on the map when they were coming up? I think they may have had a stricter, superior teaching that comes with their family intensive situation and is pretty damn hard to find outside the Gracies, even then with the growth of the family its doubtful that the careful formation of fighters will be as good as time goes on. I wonder how long we'll get Rogers and so forth or if the gracie tradition may get lax.

I'm not saying this is spot on...it isn't, I know. But I think your answer is too simple. Something has to explain why these relatively "old" second generation guys are so awesome.