How good was Richard “Math-Ace” Franklin?

[pankrat]

I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, then you said Paulo Filho would be a terrible matchup for rich. Paulo Filho is like fucking 5'7" and juiced to shit, Rich would have smashed him.

Yeah sure dude. Lutter or Okami took him down and put him in bad positions in the ground yet Paulo Fiilhi in his prime, who was a wrecking ball back in the day, wound not have a solid chance over him. Sure, dude.

Also, be honest. You didn't watch Filho during his prime

 

[HavokHarmon]

I don't agree he is underrated. Actually the opposite in these boards, where you often see him mentioned as a top5MW of all-time, or even #2, which is nonsense. I mean, he probably is underrated by some noobs that just underrate everyone from a previous era but that's another story.

He was definitely one of the best in his weight range back in the day but he was once the top dog at 185 also because it's a fact that UFC wasnt willing to throw money to top talent in order to compete in that division, as they were in Rich Franklin, who was a great posterboy for them.

Dont you think that, apart from Hendo and Belfort, Machida was not perfectly able to make 185 and beat Rich, as he actually did beat him in the past? Machida didnt use to walk around heavier than Rich.

Don't you think Lindland's wrestling prowess would pose a serious threat to Rich in his prime?

Don't you think Paulo Filho would have been a terrible matchup back when Rich was defending his UFC tittle vs the likes of Quarry or Loiseau, who were getting paid per fight like not even half than what Filho was making in Pride?

Rich's fight with Okami was extremely close btw. A draw in that fight would have been a reasonable score.

As I said, a great from his era but I'd not say he is exactly underrated, more like the opposite, especially by American fans

I guess as with any ‘underrated vs overrated’ debate it does come down to whose opinion you’re actually talking about. And I’ve seen a pretty wide range of stances on where Franklin ends up all time, everything from top 5 mw to being outside of the top 10.

My main point though was that I think his losses to Silva (and the way in which he lost) unfairly color the general perception of him. To some degree we’re left to imagine how good he would have looked at mw through his career had he not been run out of the division by one guy.

 

[HaulParris]

He was great you dummies. Just because one of the Mount Rushmore of MMA GOATS beat his ass doesn’t mean it’s time for revisionist history.

Agreed.
To me, Rich was the opposite of BJ - BJ had all the talent in the world, but lacked work ethic to consistently stay in shape and evolve with the times.
Rich was an athletic guy with nothing exceptional about him, and no solid base (didn't wrestle in college, didn't train BJJ from a young age, etc) to fall back on. Everything he achieved was through hard work, and he never let his (perhaps unlikely or unexpected) success go to his head. He also didn't have the benefit of training in a big gym like Jackson's / Miletich, etc. He took on all fights at whatever weight, didn't make excuses, didn't hold out for "money" fights. Much respect to him.

 

[pankrat]

I guess as with any ‘underrated vs overrated’ debate it does come down to whose opinion you’re actually talking about. And I’ve seen a pretty wide range of stances on where Franklin ends up all time, everything from top 5 mw to being outside of the top 10.

My main point though was that I think his losses to Silva (and the way in which he lost) unfairly color the general perception of him. To some degree we’re left to imagine how good he would have looked at mw through his career had he not been run out of the division by one guy.

Honestly, I think his fights with Okami, Machida, Wanderlei, Belfort and Henderson, all of them capable of making 185 as easy if not easier than Rich, are a pretty good sample of how he would have looked at MW had not been ruled out by Silva

And in my opinion those fights show he was very good, one of the best, but also beatable.

He has no place in any top5 of all-time, and not even top10 imo. Franklin's record is 8-3 at 185. Best wins Tanner and Okami in a close dec. To suggest that qualifies for a top10 spot of all time in the division is disrespectful to some all-time greats in the division who has a much deeper body of work in the weightclass

 

[Flboycanscrap2]

It's a controversial decision but you can't call it a robbery. Franklin's win over Okami wasnt much more convincing.

I didn't call it a robbery. I said he got jobbed. A jobbery is below a robbery.

 

[ralek4grammy]

He didn't even know the basic defense of muay thai clinch when he was the MW champion.

Franklin was good for his time, but he wouldn't crack the top 15 in the current MW division. People just don't realize how much the sport has evolved.

Give him the benefit of today's knowledge and training, though.

 

[Texan6533]

Underrated. Overshadowed by Silva but was a solid fighter. Prime Rich would have been top 10-15 today.

 

[KID Yamamoto]

He'd be a rough top 10 guy. His skill sett was well rounded but imo he'd lose to guys like Kelvin, Cannonier, Brunson and Till. He has absolutely 0 chance against Izzy or Whittaker.

 

[HavokHarmon]

Honestly, I think his fights with Okami, Machida, Wanderlei, Belfort and Henderson, all of them capable of making 185 as easy if not easier than Rich, are a pretty good sample of how he would have looked at MW had not been ruled out by Silva

And in my opinion those fights show he was very good, one of the best, but also beatable.

He has no place in any top5 of all-time, and not even top10 imo. Franklin's record is 8-3 at 185. Best wins Tanner and Okami in a close dec. To suggest that qualifies for a top10 spot of all time in the division is disrespectful to some all-time greats in the division who has a much deeper body of work in the weightclass

Do you have to be unbeatable to be in the top 5? Like I said I personally feel like he should have won against Dan (not that that counts for much, admittedly) but you have to think that a 5 round fight would have gone much differently.

Also, I think he was technically 8-4, but 2 of those losses were to Silva, one was to Henderson and the other was his last fight so I’m comfortable saying 8-3. Point being those were pretty understandable losses.

 

[LilNicky95]

He was very good for his era but was completely outclassed by Anderson Silva. He's in the same class as Chuck and Matt Hughes. Pioneers of the sport in the early days, but the game quickly passed them by.

Asinine thing to say really….Matt Hughes was one of the most dominant WWs of all time. Liddell was an icon and was KOing people right and left.

Rich was NEVER close to either guy(despite KOing a shot-chinned Chuckie late in his career).


GTFO here.

 

[LilNicky95]

He was the "Bisping" of his time.

Solid, Drug Free, Professional and very good. Gets beaten by the GOATS, but holds off a decent number of foes.

Are you sure about all this?

 

[pankrat]

Do you have to be unbeatable to be in the top 5? Like I said I personally feel like he should have won against Dan (not that that counts for much, admittedly) but you have to think that a 5 round fight would have gone much differently.

Also, I think he was technically 8-4, but 2 of those losses were to Silva, one was to Henderson and the other was his last fight so I’m comfortable saying 8-3. Point being those were pretty understandable losses.

Sure. 8-3 or 8-4 it doesnt matter.
I take his fights with Henderson, Wanderlei and even Okami for what they were: very close competitive fights. Neither Dan nor Wand fights were MW bouts btw.

It they stand as a W or a L in his record I dont care much. Performing like that against such opponents credits him as one of the best of his time.

Not top5 all-time material though. Of course not and not even that close, man.
How do you rank that resume over guys who have plenty of dominant wins and finishes in the division over top competition in their respective times?

Granted, Franklin built big part of his legacy above 185lbs but considering multiple weighclases, then there are other guys - as Belfort, Henderson or Machida themselves - that place Rich out of any all-time top5 consideration, let's be real.
It doesnt make him bad at all. Just that the fact that some fans pretend such status makes him a bit overrated imo

 

[pankrat]

I didn't call it a robbery. I said he got jobbed. A jobbery is below a robbery.

I didnt know about that; then I could agree

 

[chardog]

Rich was an elite fighter and he's proven. he was beating everyone outside of anderson silva.

he was hard to take down and his striking was good

Izzy would school him (bad style matchup), but I can see franklin vs the rest of the top 5, favoring franklin slightly.

 

[pankrat]

Rich was an elite fighter and he's proven. he was beating everyone outside of anderson silva.

he was hard to take down and his striking was good

Izzy would school him (bad style matchup), but I can see franklin vs the rest of the top 5, favoring franklin slightly.

> Rich wasnt beating everyone outside of Silva. The fact he was defending a tittle vs guys who weren't widely considered even top5 is telling enough. When he fough the best guys out of Anderson Silva, he usually kept it competitive, won some and lost to the very best.

> Rich's striking was good but wasnt that hard to take down. His TDD wasnt abysmal but far from his strongest asset. He was taken down like 20 times in UFC by so many different fighters.
He was pretty good at getting out of bad positions or get back up to his feet though. Had also great conditioning and was big for a MW.

> I think top5 MWs today would beat him handly most of the times, but I can see Franklin giving a tough go to fringe top10, and winning some in favourable match ups. He also had legit KO power to end fights.

 

[kellier]

Rich was a solid well rounded fighter and dangerous kickboxer.

KOs by all time elite MWs Silva & Belfort damaged his stock, but he had a great career.

 

[Pilo]

One of the true overlooked greats at 185 for damn sure. Very very well rounded, great stand up, nice wrestling and submissions too. People only seem to remember the losses to Anderson, but the guy consistently racked up solid wins throughout his career, and was one of the very first guys, alongside GSP to truly change the image of MMA as a sport, from being so soft spoken, educated and classy.

Franklin was actually a very key character in UFC history, at a very pivotal moment. Extremely overlooked fighter, especially nowadays.

 

[dildos]

He wasn’t that good imo.

pretty average fighter.

 

[Siver!]

I've seen both sides of this argument:

The UFC presented their middleweight champion as an elite, cerebral fighter that battered Ken Shamrock, held two wins over Evan Tanner, who was beating up-and-comers like Nate Quarry and Dave Louiseau, and (even after losing to Anderson) would go on to beat Yushin Okami (before beating Okami was a thing - side note: Okami is one of the few who scored 'victories' over elite Anderson Silva), Wanderlei, and Chuck Liddell.

But some people saw an ex-gym teacher who struggled with Jorge Rivera, had a padded record (anyone who had 15+ wins had a padded record, let's be honest), got humiliated by Anderson Silva twice, and didn't appear to have an elite skill set at all in the wake of 'The Spider's' utter annihilation.

What I think we're left with is this:

Rich Franklin was a high-calibre middleweight who rightly got the legend treatment from the UFC that saw him face only the most talented fighters following his title run. He was pretty much 50-50 with fighters like Wanderlei, Hendo, Cung Le, Chuck Liddell, while his loss to the younger Forrest Griffin doesn't look great retrospectively.

For me, the answer to 'how good was Rich Franklin REALLY' is this: he was as good as any other elite veteran of that era, but the Anderson Silva he fought was the best fighter in the world bar none. That Anderson would have demolished Wanderlei, Liddell, Vitor, and Hendo, but only really got to prove how good he was against Vitor (despite beating Hendo).

I think Franklin is a top fighter whose results against everybody but Anderson prove that. He has become an incredibly underrated fighter by those that just weren't there or who just can't read his history.

 

[Bearknuckle]

Yeah sure dude. Lutter or Okami took him down and put him in bad positions in the ground yet Paulo Fiilhi in his prime, who was a wrecking ball back in the day, wound not have a solid chance over him. Sure, dude.

Also, be honest. You didn't watch Filho during his prime

Mma math doesn’t always work man. this guy took that guy down which means this guy can take that guy down. Doesnt work that way. Takedowns and clinch takedowns are different, the set ups, the distance etc are all different.

Wand > Cung > Rich > Wand