How does a BJJer with poor takedowns fair vs. a striker?

My instructor is a world class competitor but I'm so happy he focuses heavily on takedowns and self defense and even mixes in some wrestling techniques. Some guys though just but flop in to guard when I want to stand and it pisses me off.

When was the last time you sparred with gloves on?
 
I don't think you've actually watched paul daley fight. Dude cannot wrestle for shit.

Being a "high level pro fighter" doesn't mean having good TDD, if it does then explain Carlos Condit or Anthony Pettis, who btw have both achieved far more in their careers than Daley ever has...
When compared to most BJJ hobbyists' takedowns, I think all of those would have pretty stellar takedown defense, even if it's bad for high (or even mid) level MMA. "Against pro MMA fighters" wasn't really what the TS asked about, though. It was against a boxer/MT-guy.
 
If you know how to do even a shitty double leg, you're way ahead of the general population.

Unless your double is really good I would rather go for a Judo throw or just dragging them down from a body lock. A sloppy double exposes your neck, back and back of the head for vicious elbows which could actually not only hurt but seriously injure you.
 
I train with pure strikers all the time and I would say I am fairly decent at wrestling. Some of the athletic dudes in UFC/Bellator are actually kind of tough to takedown without getting nailed a few times. Granted, they train TDD, but these are dudes coming from pure kickboxing/MT/boxing and they can be pretty slippery when they want to.
 
I train with pure strikers all the time and I would say I am fairly decent at wrestling.

If you're a "fairly decent" wrestler then 99% of this forum doesn't know a double leg from a DDT.
 
LOL Paul Daley would KTFO 98% of BJJ black belts easily in an MMA fight

You think he has no takedown defense? He is a legitimate high level professional fighter

I meant the level of take down defense rather than those individuals themselves; poorly worded on my part.

Yes, Crocop and Daley will easily beat 98% of pure BJJ (or judoka or wrestlers) in MMA; there's a reason we know their names (ie they've won at high levels in MMA). What I should have said that given a striker of about the same level as the grappler (ie recreational vs recreational, competitive vs competitive, elite vs elite), how easy it is to take them down will depend upon the individual striker. Some are much easier to take down than others - some aren't going down unless you have good takedowns yourself.

Clinching and dragging someone down doesn't work as well as some people think - you need takedown skills yourself to be sure of it. Go to a wrestling or judo club, and ask if you can try it against someone who just wants to stay on their feet, you'll be surprised. Or alternatively, watch some MMA, and you'll see why even guys like Werdum, who has some takedown skills, couldn't get someone like Overheem down with clinch and drag.
 
I train with pure strikers all the time and I would say I am fairly decent at wrestling. Some of the athletic dudes in UFC/Bellator are actually kind of tough to takedown without getting nailed a few times. Granted, they train TDD, but these are dudes coming from pure kickboxing/MT/boxing and they can be pretty slippery when they want to.

I guess a key thing in this debate is how much they want to engage with you. In either grappling or striking, if you have lots of open space, getting close to someone who only wants to disengage can be a real pain in the ass. Sure, this is the internet, but I'm pretty sure Mike Tyson could not KO me if I had an open field to run and a 30 meter headstart. And a knife just in case.
 
I meant the level of take down defense rather than those individuals themselves; poorly worded on my part.

Yes, Crocop and Daley will easily beat 98% of pure BJJ (or judoka or wrestlers) in MMA; there's a reason we know their names (ie they've won at high levels in MMA). What I should have said that given a striker of about the same level as the grappler (ie recreational vs recreational, competitive vs competitive, elite vs elite), how easy it is to take them down will depend upon the individual striker. Some are much easier to take down than others - some aren't going down unless you have good takedowns yourself.

Clinching and dragging someone down doesn't work as well as some people think - you need takedown skills yourself to be sure of it. Go to a wrestling or judo club, and ask if you can try it against someone who just wants to stay on their feet, you'll be surprised. Or alternatively, watch some MMA, and you'll see why even guys like Werdum, who has some takedown skills, couldn't get someone like Overheem down with clinch and drag.

I believe Ts is talking about people with zero grappling skills. Some people might naturally be hard to take donw, but I think clinching double unders body lock and trip works very well if you can clinch.
 
Like other people have said, this debate was called UFC 1-4.

Very, very rarely does a striker land a perfect, KO strike before a clinc, especially if the grappler is just spamming clinch attempts as fast as possible.

Muay Thai may have a better chance, but it's pretty difficult to stop a guard pulls unless you have been taught to I think.
 
When compared to most BJJ hobbyists' takedowns, I think all of those would have pretty stellar takedown defense, even if it's bad for high (or even mid) level MMA. "Against pro MMA fighters" wasn't really what the TS asked about, though. It was against a boxer/MT-guy.
Fair point

The one black belt I have rolled with most likely would get KTFO by Daley, but he's a dad in his late 40s so I mean...
 
Like other people have said, this debate was called UFC 1-4.

Very, very rarely does a striker land a perfect, KO strike before a clinc, especially if the grappler is just spamming clinch attempts as fast as possible.

Muay Thai may have a better chance, but it's pretty difficult to stop a guard pulls unless you have been taught to I think.

I think what the TS is assuming is a striker who doesn't have any experience actually training a grappling art, but knows to avoid any kind of tie up. The early UFC's, the fighters' strategies were more along the lines of KO them before they can tie up. But in this context, I think we're assuming a more knowledgeable fighter who wouldn't risk getting tied up and dragged to the ground.

This is also assuming the BJJ guy's only option is to tie up bc as OP states, doubles and any shots are out of the question. So the question is, how does a pure BJJ guy close distance and drag a striker to the ground.
 
Yes, a striker with ZERO grappling experience is what im talking about. Also, talkign about on the street.
 
Yes, a striker with ZERO grappling experience is what im talking about. Also, talkign about on the street.

Just depends how willing you are to try and take someone down.

When I was a teen and started training MMA I fought a grappler with pretty weak takedowns but he did manage to get me down once with his size advantage and persistence and I trained a little bit of takedown defense at the time.
I actually ended up subbing him.

Sgg8DO


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With no takedown defense training he probably could get a lot of people down.


Edit:
Cant get the takedown to load.

Here's the youtube takedown is like 10 seconds in.

 
Yes, a striker with ZERO grappling experience is what im talking about. Also, talkign about on the street.

Good grief. This was settled more than 20 years ago. Just watch Royce vs Gerard Gordeau in UFC 1.

Gordeau was a 6-foot-5 knockdown karate champion with 10 years of experience in bareknuckle fighting.

Royce was a BJJ black belt with weak takedowns. He still got Gordeau down in 60 seconds, using the old school strategy: Pisao kick to close the distance, body lock, outside leg trip, straight to mount.

This was under the old NHB rules. Gordeau was grabbing the cage, grabbing Royce's belt and gi, all the stuff some guy in the street would try. He even tried to bite Royce's arm. Didn't matter. He was clueless on the ground. Rear naked choke. The whole fight was less than 2 minutes.
 
You know, there's a strange phenomenon going on. It seems like the lessons of the early UFCs are becoming forgotten. It's like there's a new generation who don't realize the importance of grappling skills in real fighting.

I've had actual conversations with guys who believe Wing Chun is the best martial art because of those Ip Man movies. Guys who want to train MMA but don't want to do any of that "gay wrestling shit." Guys who think they can "beat a UFC guy" with groin kicks, eye pokes, and "banned moves."

I don't get it. Maybe the public has gotten so used to seeing the superbly cross-trained athletes in the UFC, they don't realize what it looks like when someone doesn't cross-train.
 
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