How does a BJJer with poor takedowns fair vs. a striker?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by rl692, Jul 30, 2015.

  1. rl692 White Belt

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    Yes the overblown reiterated grappler vs striker debate. People say BJJ will usually take it but what if he's not at least average at takedowns vs a boxer/MT guy? You'll say boxer would be clueless on ground, yes, but first you have to get the fight there. Sort of like that vs wrestler thread, how would one gameplan vs a striker? A clinch and throw would only be effective if you duck and grab otherwise you're getting clocked. When I say poor takedowns it likely means him shooting out of punchers range is a no go because of poor skill. So does a BJJ artist at least have to be average to be effective?
     
  2. Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    It's really not that hard to get into a clinch without getting hurt badly unless you opponent is especially skilled at avoiding clinches, which most striker aren't. Once you get into a clinch against someone with no TD defense, just dragging them to the ground is also pretty easy. It's why the Gracies teach the body lock outside trip as a basic TD: it's really easy to pull off against an untrained person even if you don't practice TDs a lot. Frankly Royce didn't have very good TDs and he fought some good pure strikers and kicked their asses.

    In general against a pure striker with no TD experience shooting if you're not good at it is a much worse idea than just clinching and dragging him to the ground. Frankly, I could easily clinch and pull guard against someone who didn't know any BJJ and beat them that way.
     
  3. lechien Gold Belt

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    You have to do specific training for that.

    You cannot just roll from the knees all the time and just drill a couple of TKD before comp and think you can do clinch a striker and take him down.

    Get some gloves and punch your training partner and see if he can get you down.
     
  4. TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    Clinch takedowns against a MT striker... are sure to end badly. Those guys are strikers, but have damn good balance and posture in the clinch. And boxers train to not clinch as well, it's an anti-tactic to people who are tired.
     
  5. LeoGyakazuki White Belt

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    I think the big err in sport bjj is that they focused too much on guard passing, ground work, and not really how to get there. I've been in two bjj schools, and god they don't teach anything on how to get to the ground first. They just teach, okay go to your guard, go to his guard. In Gracie Jiu-jitsu videos, first thing they taught was getting to the ground, getti'n your opponent down.

    In wrestling, we we're taught takedowns, takedowns. But we didn't do any specific training for it. We just did takedowns and I don't understand why bjj schools for whitebelts lend a minute or two for it.
     
  6. lechien Gold Belt

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    Because their BJJ instructors do not know how to throw.
     
  7. Young Turkey Green Belt

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    If the striker has 0 ground game and 0 tdd then it won't be that hard. Clinch --> takedown.

    The biggest problem I see are bjj guys reaching out to grab a striker and getting countered for it. Clinching against a striker is different than clinching against a grappler. To initiate a clinch against a striker, you need a tight guard (boxing guard) blocking yourself until you're almost chest to chest with them before trying to grab.

    Or you could punch your way into a clinch but I'm assuming a bjj guy w/ no striking, who'd probably get KO'd trying that.

    But if the striker has TDD then you might be in for a world of hurt:
    http://vk.com/video-154239_169133421?list=19f268289304e6c7bb
     
  8. jeremyemilio Silver Belt

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    If you're talking about strikers who are simply pure strikers and know nothing about takedown defense, the experiment has been done, and the results were pretty convincing:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And before we get into the "It was a set-up! None of those fighters were world class guys!" bit, let's just take a minute to realize that almost everyone, and especially the strikers, on those cards had competed on the international level in their sport... and Royce was a kid who had been playing with his brothers at this obscure grappling game his dad invented.
     
  9. johnyboy Silver Belt

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    If the jj guy gets a hold of a leg he will eventually get a take down.
     
  10. lechien Gold Belt

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    "Royce was a kid who had been playing with his brothers at this obscure grappling game his dad invented."


    Hum, Royce was already fighting vale tudo challenge before UFC1.

    It is not the same as playing with his brothers.

    Well unless, you have yourself fought Vale Tudo?
     
  11. rl692 White Belt

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    My instructor is a world class competitor but I'm so happy he focuses heavily on takedowns and self defense and even mixes in some wrestling techniques. Some guys though just but flop in to guard when I want to stand and it pisses me off.
     
  12. Wanderlei Industries Brown Belt

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    If you know how to do even a shitty double leg, you're way ahead of the general population.
     
  13. rl692 White Belt

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    True but someone poor at takedowns overall can enter into dangerous territory in attempting one vs a striker. Can be slow, sloppy, overall bad technique which can result in some clocks to the face.
     
  14. CYKO Yellow Belt

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    No way... striker with no grappling skills is a ridiculously EASY takedown MT, boxing, or whatever. Maybe at Buakaw, Mayweather level they're talented enough to resist a few times, but only for a while. Grappler will destroy them just like Royce did.
     
  15. RightKnee Blue Belt

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    Andy Wang fits the bill perfectly solid BJJ no takedown offense.
     
  16. georgejjr Black Belt

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    Depends upon the striker. Against someone like Crocop with good takedown defense and you're in for a lot of pain. Against someone like Daley with no takedown defense and you're probably going to be able to drag them down.

    If you're talking about MMA (you don't say the context), pure BJJ (like pure judo, pure boxing, pure MT, pure wrestling) is not going to get you far at all. Even strikers in MMA tend to have solid takedown defense (Liddell being a great example of course).

    If you're talking about an open street encounter, depends on how much room there is to move about. The more room, the better for the striker (cages and rings are big advantages for grapplers - and I say this as a judoka/wrestler - because it keeps the striker from just moving around completely out of distance except for a few jabs.
     
  17. TheHereticJay I scoff at your belt rankings

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    Anyone that trains muay thai, not K1 rules, will have basic takedown defense and offense inside the clinch because certain footsweeps and throws inside the clinch are allowed. Sure, shooting a double would be foreign to them but underhooks and footsweeps are not so much.

    I've competed with Andy and am doing a competition that he's hosting tomorrow... I've never seen him pull guard and he's relentless with his constant attempts at doubles and singles. He's far from fitting the bill.
     
  18. Blacklabel Banned Banned

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    james tony vs randy
     
  19. SFCFighter Blue Belt

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    LOL Paul Daley would KTFO 98% of BJJ black belts easily in an MMA fight

    You think he has no takedown defense? He is a legitimate high level professional fighter
     
  20. Steve08 American Fedor Belt

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    I don't think you've actually watched paul daley fight. Dude cannot wrestle for shit.

    Being a "high level pro fighter" doesn't mean having good TDD, if it does then explain Carlos Condit or Anthony Pettis, who btw have both achieved far more in their careers than Daley ever has...
     

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