How do you have opponents back for 12 of 15 minutes...and lose???

FinBJJ said:
I'm not a fan of Lnp, but Ian had his back for most of the fight. He had dominant position. The judging was a joke.
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dominant? Having your back pinned against the cage as you hold on to someones back getting elbowed repeatedly in the face is dominant?

Most of the fight they were sitting on the ground that isn't even a full takedown.
 
Te Huna Matata said:
The funny thing is if Stephens had a BJJ background and not a wrestling background, you people would be even more outraged. It was a comically bad decision. Crystal clear 30-26.
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This was a fight not a hugging contest. He couldn't even get a full takedown. Sitting is not a takedown.
 
Zapata getting credit for blood drawn via illegal strikes that got him a clear warning.
 
BrainBar said:
UFC markets itself as the truest FIGHT, and NOT a beauty pageant.

Is "Lay and Pray" pretty? No. But, its not the grapplers job to let his opponent up. If the opponent doesn't like "Lay and Pray", then GET THE FUCK UP.
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Yes it's a FIGHT. In a real FIGHT, damage counts more than hugging someone.
 
BrainBar said:
UFC markets itself as the truest FIGHT, and NOT a beauty pageant.

Is "Lay and Pray" pretty? No. But, its not the grapplers job to let his opponent up. If the opponent doesn't like "Lay and Pray", then GET THE FUCK UP.
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I love wrestling and I think lay and pray is not winning. I have an appreciation for quality wrestlng within MMA. It should be used as a tool to fight. ie take the fight to the ground and punch or elbow. If you don't do any 'fighting', its as effective as good footwork and TDD. Footwork is the tool but not fighting until strikes start happening. The guy with good foot work & TDD dictates where the fight takes place just as much as the wrestler taking you down dictates where the fight takes place.
It should be the refs job to make sure a fight is happening, not always the guy on bottom.

So we find ourselves with a fight taking place on the ground, but the guy who took it there is getting punched and elbowed in the process. We could akin this to a striker defending takedowns (ie dictating the fight to stay on the feet) but also getting punched and kicked in the process - yes you keep the fight standing but you get beat up. Just as yes, you took the fight to the ground, but got beat up.

All this is fine and dandy but I am forgetting the back control which is an extremely dominant position, and this is where the perception of judging by humans will be the tricky subject. Two people decided back control with no; 'submission - saved by the bell' or slick transitions chaining one sub attempt to another, was not as advantageous as punching a guys face, as soft as some of them may have been, and as much as 'damage' is not a criteria. Subliminally - it is.

Like it or not here is an argument to be made that two people could possibly judge Zapata as a winner of a fight. As much as I value the control over the strikes and I did not score it for Zapata, I see the reasoning, but would judge it in Stephens favour even without the point deduction - which is just a whole nother can of worm I canrt be bothered typing about that mismanagement. You cant just decide a winner of a majority draw on the spot. Fucken LOL.
 
Wrestlers have needed a wake up call and a shot across the bow for a while now. Learn to strike from all positions. Do damage. Dont be afraid to exchange. Zapata was the busier fighter and did more damage. Bottom line.
 
I thought it was a draw or go to a 4th round. Not enough damage. You can't just hold him down and not land considerable damage and his subs attempts were terrible he was being coached how to do them as he fought. If you are both on the ground it should be similar to standing whoever lands the most and is most effective in their attack whether it be subs or strikes wins. You can't just watch the guys back and lay on him that is the fighters fault for not having the killer instinct. TBH it looked like he was hanging on for dear life. The only oddity was the point deduction I thought that had sealed the fight.
 
Jaden Korr said:
That wouldn't happen and I'll tell you why, Ronda, and I'm not a fan, has balls and would be striking and scoring points. I have never seen Ronda just lay on someone and wait for the clock to run out. Look at her fights, she has 1 that went out of round 1, all the others she finished. That's a completely different kind of grappler from the leg humpin we saw last night.
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I know it wouldn't happen. That's why I said "not likely to happen but just for arguments sake". DW picks and chooses what he wants and feels according to $$$. just switch those fighters out like I said, and I guarantee Dana would be talking about how the striker was out grappled, and deserved to lose. If you can't get up you don't deserve to be in the UFC.., I've heard him say that tons of times. Either way the fight was crap, I'm just saying Dana changes his opinion like I change my underwear, probably even more. Remember how womens mma would never ever be in the UFC? All I'm sayoin is the guy is a hypocrite because the bottom line is whatever makes $$$ is what he says.
 
CelticThunder said:
Yes it's a FIGHT. In a real FIGHT, damage counts more than hugging someone.
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pointless argument man. This isn't a real fight. It's a sport, with rules and scoring. Having said that, Stevens blew it, but so did the judges. with Zapata losing a point in the 3rd there is NO way he can win that fight by a decision period.
 
Zapata will not win the finale, with that TDD. Dana will likely let Stephen's fight at the finale. I wouldn't be surprised if we see them both fight there. Not sure if he would put them against each other, again.
 
BrainBar said:
Um....no. Its not the top guys job to LET YOU UP. Its your damn job to GET UP. If grappling is so ineffective, and striking is so much better, then it should be easy for the striker to just get up, right? Afterall, its a FIGHT, not a beauty contest (Right? That's how UFC markets itself).

"Landing punches" that were about as hard as a 10 year old. Throwing your hand behind your head and hitting the other guys scalp, with almost no impact, is the striking version of "just laying there". You aren't doing any damage.
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I agree with the first part and disagree with the second. Well, kinda disagree. The other guy landed some pretty decent elbows in the first and third.
Ian did no damage in round one, except for one TD (good one though). It was not clear who won the rounds even for the coaches. Frankie Edgar did not seem confident at all about the outcome of that round.
I think Ian should have won the third, but I like the idea of judging grappling by effectiveness as well.
 
he had about 15 illegal elbows and grabbed the fence about same amount
 
Let me just say this, this fight proves to me only that TUF is completely unnecessary for finding elite talent for the UFC. If either of these two are considered "elite/up and coming" fighters than the UFC is in a lot of trouble. One guy cannot for the life of him defend a takedown, the other for the life of him could do nothing once the fight hit the floor. Garbage fight because of incredibly limited skill-sets of both fighters.
 
One4Deuce said:
Let me just say this, this fight proves to me only that TUF is completely unnecessary for finding elite talent for the UFC. If either of these two are considered "elite/up and coming" fighters than the UFC is in a lot of trouble. One guy cannot for the life of him defend a takedown, the other for the life of him could do nothing once the fight hit the floor. Garbage fight because of incredibly limited skill-sets of both fighters.
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A 2006 join date and you know nothing about martial arts? That's embarrassing.

Stephens has elite level wrestling. Zapata completely negated him.

What you watched was a very evenly matched fight between two very good fighters.

Your post is the equivalent of watching a 0-0 soccer game and going, "these are the best in the world? they can't even score on each other!"
 
Gigaton Punch said:
Ask Demian Maia, cause he did the exact same thing against Jon Fitch. Everyone on here acted like it was the greatest thing since sliced bread though.
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Maia landed 63 strikes to Fitch's 36, Maia had 3 sub attempts to Fitch's 1, and Maia had 5 guard passes while Fitch had 0 reversals. Somehow, that is the same thing?


One4Deuce said:
Let me just say this, this fight proves to me only that TUF is completely unnecessary for finding elite talent for the UFC. If either of these two are considered "elite/up and coming" fighters than the UFC is in a lot of trouble. One guy cannot for the life of him defend a takedown, the other for the life of him could do nothing once the fight hit the floor. Garbage fight because of incredibly limited skill-sets of both fighters.
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You act like fighters can't improve. There's been a number of guys who looked far better after TUF than they did on it.
 
I think the real question is how can you have someone's back for 12 minutes and fail to do anything. I mean Stevens clearly thought he was winning the fight if he just kept the position (and I won't blame him, the history of decisions shows that control means the most to the judges).

But really go for that rnc, don't stop trying, punch to confuse, palm-to-palm, neck crank, go to mount, attack the arm, whatever do something!
 
MMADonkey said:
I think the real question is how can you have someone's back for 12 minutes and fail to do anything. I mean Stevens clearly thought he was winning the fight if he just kept the position (and I won't blame him, the history of decisions shows that control means the most to the judges).

But really go for that rnc, don't stop trying, punch to confuse, palm-to-palm, neck crank, go to mount, attack the arm, whatever do something!
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dunham/griffin, maia/fitch, couture/sylvia were all fights with very little activity from the back.

Are you honestly suggesting that dunham, maia, and couture are poor grapplers too?

The answer is easy: It's hard to submit someone who knows what he's doing.
 
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