How do you explain BJ Penn fall?

MescalineDreams said:
Not much

He definitely tightened everything up though

But he was good pretty much everywhere

Great boxing, some of the best Tdd in the sport, excellent Jiu jitsu in particular his top game, underrated wrestling.

If it ain't broke don't fix it as they say
He did stop Diego with a headlock so there's that

But yeah, shoulda made adjustments to his cardio, work ethic, along with general fight iq, mental game and strategy

All the talent was there but he very well could've been the p4p goat. Talent wise to me he's absolutely one of the greats, among the best.

Crazy thing about Penn is that he accomplished what he did and achieved the skills he did a only a fraction of his full potential. That's part of his legend
Click to expand...
I can agreed with all of this. But the game evolved and Penn didn't - GSP did, and it's why he'll always be in GOAT contention. Penn isn't seriously considered in that conversation. Maybe LW GOAT talks, but definitely not p4p

So much talent but he really never recognized his potential
 
This definitely strays into armchair psychologist territory, but I have always felt like BJ fighting above his weight class was a defense mechanism where he was creating no lose situations. If he wins, omg what a legend. If he loses then hey he just got outsized.

Especially after the second Edgar loss when it was clear he would have to make major improvements to actually recapture the belt, I think he checked out a bit and increasingly took these no lose situation fights. But I think this lead to him taking a pretty incredible amount of damage that has not been good for his physical or mental health.
 
gono btw said:
Consequently, how do ya explain the Fitch fight, mate?
Click to expand...

Nothing impressive happened in that fight. Experience helped them both to a draw. No kudos.

I also can’t explain how he lost to Dennis Siver. BJ’s full of surprises.
 
TerrorTimmy said:
I can agreed with all of this. But the game evolved and Penn didn't - GSP did, and it's why he'll always be in GOAT contention. Penn isn't seriously considered in that conversation. Maybe LW GOAT talks, but definitely not p4p

So much talent but he really never recognized his potential
Click to expand...
Interestin´...Ya pretend he didnt evolve (classic cliché).

Can ya give us your technical assessment of the Fitch fight, for instance?
 
Law Dog said:
Nothing impressive happened in that fight. Experience helped them both to a draw. No kudos.

.
Click to expand...
Interestin´...

Can ya give us your technical assessment of the Fitch fight, for instance?
 
His decline started fighting giant WWs like Diaz, Fitch, and Rory. He actually won rounds against these guys who are like 25 lbs bigger than him. He stopped training for real and his cardio was shit. After that he was old and not training for real
 
Law Dog said:
Nothing impressive happened in that fight. Experience helped them both to a draw. No kudos.

I also can’t explain how he lost to Dennis Siver. BJ’s full of surprises.
Click to expand...
Penn literally Fitched Fitch

How was that not impressive lol
 
Agree with many things said in this thread but I also think the new breed of fighter is a much better athlete. BJ was always flexible and a great fighter but he never struck me as a great athlete. Especially in his later fights. He plods forward flat footed and that isn't going to get the job done against the young athletic guys
 
BJ was a lightweight. For today's standards, not a big one.

His first 8 fights were at LW. He easily finished his fist 3 opponents (Din Thomas, Caol Uno), lost a close decision vs Pulver, finished Gomi, who had a very good record back then and was a top LW, had a draw with Caol Uno, beat Sera. A 6-1-1 LW record, not bad.

He decided to go at WW and finishes Hughes in the 1st round. Hughes had a 35–3 record.
Later, he fights at MW and wins. He decides MW is too small for him and fights at OW vs Machida. And BJ did good vs a much bigger Machida. Sure, he lost, but it wasn't a beating at all. He also beats Renzo Gracie before returning in UFC.

He fights at WW vs GSP (close decision) and Hughes, both considered best WW ever. He losses to them. Returns to LW for 3 fights, finishes all his opponents, wins and defends his belt. Comes back at WW and losses to GSP again. He defends 2 more times his LW belt and then Frankie beats him twice by decision. Then he finishes Hughes one more time, finishes Sanchez who was never finished before and has a draw vs Fitch, who was 21-1 in his last fights, only losing to GSP.

Then, he is out of his prime and goes 0-7 losing to bigger guys like Diaz, Rory and even tries FW.

Now, leaving aside his last 7 fights, BJ Penn lost 7 times:
- 2 times vs GSP - best WW ever
- 2 times vs Frankie - LW champion
- once vs Hughes - second best WW ever and BJ finished him twice
- Jens Pulver - LW champion and BJ avenged that loss, by finishing Pulver
- Machida - UFC champion

All of them were champions at some point.

That's pretty impressive in my book. I believe his record would have looked different (a more positive balance) if he hadn't went up in weight to fight at WW, MW and OW. Overrated? Maybe by some of his fans. But the man had all of them. Chin, boxing, ground game, fight IQ, athleticism. Except work ethic.

What happened to him? Who knows?
Maybe USADA
Maybe his lifestyle fucked him up at 30
Maybe the new generation of fighters
Maybe GSP took his soul
Maybe all of them

I wonder what would have happened if BJ had GSP's work ethic.
 
Canned Tuna said:
I agree with most of your post, but the "lower quality athlete" topic has nothing to do with the age/career trajectory in combat sports. It isn't just MMA. You see the same thing in boxing and wrestling.

Guys often peak later (or can maintain their peak longer) in combat sports because they are further to the skill side of the skill vs athleticism spectrum, just like baseball players or quarterbacks. Higher or lower quality athlete doesn't have much to do with it. Athleticism is just less important in games/positions where skill is more important (and the skill cap is insanely high).

Another big factor is that speed goes away long before strength. In combat sports, some styles are not reliant on speed and can focus instead on strength.

Bigger guys peak later/longer for three reasons that I know of:
1. Their bodies can take more punishment
2. They generally finish developing physically at a later age
3. Strength lasts longer than speed and they are often less reliant on speed

*When I say speed I'm also including reflexes. The fact that speed goes first is a big reason that guys with explosive styles like RJJ and Fedor usually do not age as well as more methodical guys like B-Hop and Randy.
Click to expand...

All valid points, you're entirely right. I simplified the matter.
 
OmegaRugal said:
If he was overrated then so was Hughes an all LW and WWs during and before that time.
Click to expand...
Hughes beat him in prime. The game has evolved since, Hughes wouldn’t be top 10 today.
The lightweights of that era wouldn’t be relevant today either. You think Sherk would be top 10?
Good but overated.
 
CTE, wear and tear, faded glory, alcohol/drug issues/a bit of a spoiled rich kid
 
Xoleth said:
I wonder what would have happened if BJ had GSP's work ethic.
Click to expand...
WE saw it for 2 fights - the florian and sanchez fights - then for whatever reason (didn't like working hard) he chased away Marv and Gary and then lost to Frankie the first time (I believe if he had stayed on the Marv system he would have pulled off a win) and has been on a down slide since then.
 
Relied on freakish athleticism and natural talent rather than hard work and being a professional.
 
Hawkeye Mihawk said:
Hughes beat him in prime. The game has evolved since, Hughes wouldn’t be top 10 today.
The lightweights of that era wouldn’t be relevant today either. You think Sherk would be top 10?
Good but overated.
Click to expand...


What did Hughes do to win round 1 and 2 of.the Penn rematch?
Oh he didnt win those?
He got completely owned standing and on the ground again in the rematch.


Penn beat himself by gassing due his his poor conditioning at WW and supposedly injuring a rib while trying to choke out Hughes who was saved by the bell.

Not bad for an overrated chubby LW vs the at the time best WW in the world.

Skill for skill Penn >>>>>>> Hughes
 
Explosive, athletic fighters tend to decline at a earlier age. Power is the last thing to go, explosiveness & athleticism you lose a step or two earlier. There are tons of guys who started declining in their early 30s, guys like Couture are truly rare
 
MescalineDreams said:
I dunno how you look at his al around skill set during his absolute best and call him overrated

He was the most raw talented fighters in the sport, great everywhere

He inspired an entire generation of fighters along with a few others. That doesn't happen if you're overrated. Fighters know what's up and Penn was a bad motherfucker, simple as that.
Click to expand...


Royce Gracie inspired the entire sport and I'd argue he's also overrated. Getting fat and fighting at higher weight classes, or licking blood off yourself doesn't impress me like it does others. He was an average boxer and slightly above average jitz guy. No wrestling, no kicking and no cardio. I am not eempressed by iz peerformance
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
1,236,401
Messages
55,417,897
Members
174,763
Latest member
ThroughTheDakr

Share this page

Back
Top