Opinion How can we truly end Mexico's cartels and drug wars?

[MMAGA]

Do the cartels still make a lot from selling cannabis these days? How legalization in many states effected it at all?

Law enforcement is still making weed busts at the border, so, theirs still some motivation for the DTOs. I don't know that legalization has had that huge an impact on these DTOs in the weed market.

 

[superpunch]

they couldnt make billions kidnapping people like they do now from drugs - not to mention how much harder that process would be on US soil
legalizing drugs would severely cut cartels financing which would in turn most likely trigger inner conflicts within cartels for whats left of the profits - most of them would die out in the process by not being able to finance themselves anymore in volume that they are now

everything else was already tried to combat these cartels - the only thing that put a dent in them was legalizing weed, forcing them to focus on other drugs instead
if we legalized everything, they'd be properly fucked

just treat people like adults and legalize drugs - those who want to use hard drugs (heroin, meth, etc), use part of taxes from drugs to finance clinics that would help these addicts and wean them off the harder stuff (anyone who buys these drugs is automatically listed in the system and should report to these clinics)
if I am not mistaken Portugal has this system in place and it was a huge success, reducing the number of addicts by a noticeable number

also people wont be so hard pressed to use harder drugs if there is weed (and alcohol) on every step + they are getting the attention they need from professionals in clinics

The cartels are Mexico's problem, not America's. America will always act in America's own interest before Mexico's. It's against American interests to legalize drugs. We're not going to legalize heroin in our streets and turn the entire country into crackhead paradise like San Francisco because Mexico can't control their own country. No Americans outside of San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle want their children to see junkies shooting up in the streets daily and having to avoid needles and human shit and lunatics in public. That's not going to happen. It's Mexico's responsibility to solve Mexico's problems.

 

[panamaican]

U.S. citizens, within our country, sells drugs, too. From street corners to warehouse operations. Meanwhile, this country has a hell of a lot more to offer than, let's say Mexico. What's our excuse?

What's our excuse for what? I said people will always chase fast and easy money so you will never get rid of drug dealers or cartels in their entirety.

As for the rest of it, let's not lie to ourselves - pockets of the U.S. most certainly do not have a lot more to offer. That's as simplistic a perspective as saying "The U.S. has more to offer than Vietnam, so what's our excuse for having homelessness? Or what's our excuse for everyone not having $500k saved in the bank?"

 

[Islam Imamate]

You're pretty much solidifying the notion that criminals are perpetually evolving. Also, the U.S. media may not publicize it much, but there's quite a bit of narco violence occurring in the U.S. They tend to stick to their own criminal circles, and don't mess with the common citizen as much, but that could all change once the dynamic of their "trade" is affected.

Criminals do evolve but I do think its possible to change the structural circumstances so that their enterprises are smaller, weaker, and less influential in Mexican politics. Relying on extortion and kidnapping is far riskier and less profitable than drugs so if forced to rely on that it would be a significant victory over criminal enterprises.

To fix those crime problems in general you'd have to reduce the staggering wealth inequality of Latin America which as a region is the least equal place on earth in terms of wealth. The more unequal a society is, the more corrupt it is and the more the people at the bottom feel they can't get ahead by playing by the rules so they'll resort to criminality.

 

[Gutter Chris]

Maybe companies should be allowed to try and make new drugs that give the same type of high as these major drugs but with out the nasty effects on one's health?

All the good shit like meth and fentynal are what you get when people make designer versions of the classics. If anything they should legalize the legacy drugs and go hard on anything made in a lab


The solution is legal drugs in the west where the markets are and they fight for control of the routes.

Step one is legaloze drugs in the states

Step 2 is take all that law enforcement rename them the cartel squad and have them watch the cartels like a hawk and throw the book at them when they go into other criminal work to make up for lost money.

 

[Fanu]

The cartels are Mexico's problem, not America's. America will always act in America's own interest before Mexico's. It's against American interests to legalize drugs. So, that's not going to happen. We're not going to legalize heroin in our streets and turn the entire country into crackhead paradise like San Francisco because Mexico can't control their own country.

why do you think most americans would be heroin addicts if it were legalized? lol

 

[Islam Imamate]

What's our excuse for what? I said people will always chase fast and easy money so you will never get rid of drug dealers or cartels in their entirety.

As for the rest of it, let's not lie to ourselves - pockets of the U.S. most certainly do not have a lot more to offer. That's as simplistic a perspective as saying "The U.S. has more to offer than Vietnam, so what's our excuse for having homelessness? Or what's our excuse for everyone not having $500k saved in the bank?"

That's true but I think reducing inequality would go a long way to reducing the prevalence of drug dealers and cartels. If people start to feel that the risk associated with the fast, easy money is not worth it they'll be less likely to resort to it. And how do you get people to that point? By reducing inequality and increasing social mobility so the people at the bottom feel that they have legal avenues to get ahead in life and that the fast, easy money route really isn't worth the associated risk when there's a more reliable and far less risky alternative available.

EDIT: just saw you made more or less the same point earlier.

 

[superpunch]

why do you think most americans would be heroin addicts if it were legalized? lol

No, I don't think many more people would use heroin if it was legalized. You're putting words in my mouth and answering a question I never asked.

Legalizing drugs would make it impossible to keep heroin (and other drugs) and all its associated consequences out of public sight. I've lived in liberal cities like San Francisco and Seattle that have unofficial policies not to arrest people who have drugs up to a certain amount. That's how you end up with junkies openly smoking meth and visibly shooting up with needles in public, crazy people causing crazy people problems, skyrocketing drug addict related petty crime like shoplifting and vehicle break-ins, etc.

All those things are virtually impossible for police to actually catch people in the 10 seconds it takes to do them and prosecute for. The way to prevent them from being something kids see everyday is to keep people on drugs away from the public. You keep people on drugs away from the public by arresting people who have drugs.

I used to walk by passed out naked people, people shooting up heroin and smoking meth, etc. everyday. Kids in those cities had to see that shit every day. Americans won't let that become the new normal in America.

Americans aren't going to turn the entire country into what San Francisco looks like to solve Mexico's problems.

 

[MMAGA]

What's our excuse for what? I said people will always chase fast and easy money so you will never get rid of drug dealers or cartels in their entirety.

As for the rest of it, let's not lie to ourselves - pockets of the U.S. most certainly do not have a lot more to offer. That's as simplistic a perspective as saying "The U.S. has more to offer than Vietnam, so what's our excuse for having homelessness? Or what's our excuse for everyone not having $500k saved in the bank?"

My bad...I guess you were referring to U.S. dealers transporting it within the U.S. when you stated the following...

"Legalize it in the U.S. and make it easier to import because drug dealers are massive distribution networks and a lot of the value of a cartel lies in their ability to transport their product."

 

[My2Cents]

Lol at people saying legalize it, yet they're laughing at all the needles, junkies, and shit in San Francisco streets.

Shit would be all over America

these junkies are already there thanks to your painkiller companies. The US should treat addiction as a decease, not a criminal act, and focus on healthcare instead of tracking down users/dealers.

all shit should be legalized and the harder stuff like heroin, coke and meth should be available only in pharmacies (with decent tracking of usage/explanation of risks involved etc etc)

 

[panamaican]

That's true but I think reducing inequality would go a long way to reducing the prevalence of drug dealers and cartels. If people start to feel that the risk associated with the fast, easy money is not worth it they'll be less likely to resort to it. And how do you get people to that point? By reducing inequality and increasing social mobility so the people at the bottom feel that they have legal avenues to get ahead in life and that the fast, easy money route really isn't worth the associated risk when there's a more reliable and far less risky alternative available.

EDIT: jut saw you made more or less the same point earlier.

I really think that an overlooked element of the conversation is distribution. People focus on the street level dealer and walls. But what makes a cartel profitable is the ability to transport the illegal drugs in large quantities across the border. Walls aren't going to stop the sophisticated transportation schemes. And street level dealers are literally the last link in the distribution network, plus the most easily replaced. You can kill the head of a cartel but the routes into the U.S. won't be affected, there will just be a fight over who gets to control those routes.

However, if importation was legal then the cartels wouldn't have a monopoly on distribution. A monopoly they control because no legitimate corporation, like FedEx or DHL or Amazon, is allowed to compete. Legal importation, tax it at the border.

But, I agree, it has to be coupled with increased economic opportunity. Cigarettes are legal and yet we still have a black market for them, the same with alcohol. You're never going to eliminate illegal trade completely.

 

[Islam Imamate]

No, I don't think many more people would use heroin if it was legalized. You're putting words in my mouth and answering a question I never asked.

Legalizing drugs would make it impossible to keep heroin (and other drugs) and all its associated consequences out of public sight. I've lived in liberal cities like San Francisco and Seattle that have unofficial policies not to arrest people who have drugs up to a certain amount. That's how you end up with junkies openly smoking meth and visibly shooting up with needles in public, crazy people causing crazy people problems, skyrocketing petty drug addict crime like shoplifting and vehicle break-ins, etc.

All those things are virtually impossible for police to actually catch people in the 10 seconds it takes to do them and prosecute for. The way to prevent them from being something kids see everyday is to keep people on drugs away from the public. You keep people on drugs away from the public by arresting people who have drugs.

I used to walk by passed out naked people, people shooting up heroin and smoking meth, etc. everyday. Kids in those cities had to see that shit every day. Americans won't let that become the new normal in America.

Americans aren't going to turn the entire country into what San Francisco looks like to solve Mexico's problems.

The solution to that is to ban public use of these drugs. Heck ban public use of all drugs. Lots of places have open bottle laws already, extend that to marijuana and other drugs if they are decriminalized. You want to smoke pot or shoot heroin? Then take it home and do it there. Ruthlessly arrest those who violate these laws but leave people who want to use drugs in private alone.

 

[PrinceOfPain]

The cartels are Mexico's problem, not America's. America will always act in America's own interest before Mexico's. It's against American interests to legalize drugs. We're not going to legalize heroin in our streets and turn the entire country into crackhead paradise like San Francisco because Mexico can't control their own country. No Americans outside of San Francisco, Portland, and Seattle want their children to see junkies shooting up in the streets daily and having to avoid needles and human shit and lunatics in public. That's not going to happen. It's Mexico's responsibility to solve Mexico's problems.

You think it's in America's interests to continue to support the funding of highly structured, globally connected criminal organisations that more and more seem to evolving into low-level insurgency groups, who operate right on the other side of your border and who, if combined, would be capable of fielding a force of comparable infantry strength to that of the legitimate government of that country?

 

[panamaican]

My bad...I guess you were referring to U.S. dealers transporting it within the U.S. when you stated the following...

"Legalize it in the U.S. and make it easier to import because drug dealers are massive distribution networks and a lot of the value of a cartel lies in their ability to transport their product."

No, I'm referring to the global transportation network.

But what makes a cartel profitable is the ability to transport the illegal drugs in large quantities across the border. Walls aren't going to stop the sophisticated transportation schemes. And street level dealers are literally the last link in the distribution network, plus the most easily replaced. You can kill the head of a cartel but the routes into the U.S. won't be affected, there will just be a fight over who gets to control those routes. However, if importation was legal then the cartels wouldn't have a monopoly on distribution. A monopoly they control because no legitimate corporation, like FedEx or DHL or Amazon, is allowed to compete. Legalize importation, tax it at the border.

A company like FedEx can't compete on drug distribution because the product is illegal at the federal level so FedEx can't bring it across the borders. That is the cartel advantage. Once the product makes it into the U.S., you will always have people for whom drug dealing is the best economic opportunity available to them. You're never changing that. But if you want to hurt the cartels then take away the monopoly on distribution.

This is very similar to what happened with prohibition. Ending prohibition didn't end illegal alcohol production. It ended the fiscal viability of illegal alcohol transportation on a large scale or, put flippantly, Yay NASCAR.

 

[superpunch]

The solution to that is to ban public use of these drugs. Heck ban public use of all drugs. Lots of places have open bottle laws already, extend that to marijuana and other drugs if they are decriminalized. You want to smoke pot or shoot heroin? Then take it home and do it there. Ruthlessly arrest those who violate these laws but leave people who want to use drugs in private alone.

It takes 30 seconds to use a drug in public, how are they going to catch people?

Even if they do catch people, using something legal in pubic can only be something like a citation ticket or a small misdemeanor. So what would an addict care?

How is that going to help prevent vehicle break-ins, lunatic behavior, shoplifting, etc?

That sounds good in theory but it's impossible and leads to what I was saying above about hard drugs and all their consequences becoming a public blight.

 

[superpunch]

You think it's in America's interests to continue to support the funding of highly structured, globally connected criminal organisations that more and more seem to evolving into low-level insurgency groups, who operate right on the other side of your border and who, if combined, would be capable of fielding a force of comparable infantry strength to that of the legitimate government of that country?

Having lived in cities similar to San Francisco, yes.

 

[Islam Imamate]

It takes 30 seconds to use a drug in public, how are they going to catch people?

Even if they do catch people, using something legal in pubic can only be something like a citation ticket or a small misdemeanor. So what would an addict care?

How is that going to help prevent vehicle break-ins, lunatic behavior, shoplifting, etc?

That sounds good in theory but it's impossible and leads to what I was saying above about hard drugs and all their consequences becoming a public blight.

Enact very harsh punishments for being caught in public, especially if you're a repeat offender. And of course this approach should be coupled with a public health outreach program to get help for these addicts. No solution is perfect but the current approach just seems broken.

 

[My2Cents]

It takes 30 seconds to use a drug in public, how are they going to catch people?

Even if they do catch people, using something legal in pubic can only be something like a citation ticket or a small misdemeanor. So what would an addict care?

How is that going to help prevent vehicle break-ins, lunatic behavior, shoplifting, etc?

That sounds good in theory but it's impossible and leads to what I was saying above about hard drugs and all their consequences becoming a public blight.

hardcore addicts should be given the drugs for free so they don’t have to rob and steal to get their dope. Let them use their life away if they want, as long as they don’t give any problems to the normal society.

 

[Madmick]

That's not as consequential as it might seem since the cartels primary market isn't Mexico, its the US and Europe. Decriminalization would have to happen there first and I think you'd have to establish some kind of domestic production pipeline to cut the cartels off from their biggest markets.

There's a slew of factors. It's a beautiful refutation to the delusion of a panacea. Decriminalization won't work in nearly any country where there is more ready access to substrates, where there is a larger disposable income among the people, and where there is a constant influx of an impoverished migrant population.

 

[Bald1]

Bring in Duterte

Then shoot him in the head. Winning!!


Decriminalization is the only option. Anyone saying otherwise is either uninformed, has skin in the game or is an authorotarian. People are always going to indulge their vices and the inherently victimless ones should be decriminalized and regulated.