How Big a gun do you need to take down a angry Grizzly?

[Frontier A318**]

When an angry Grizzly is barreling down on me, I dont think Id want to leave anything too chance.

A high power rifle and a nicely placed round in one of its eyes should bring it down for the count. But if you miss.....lol.

That's exactly where I'd shoot it. Right in the eyes.

 

[ECS123]

Big brown bear (griz) is about as close to African Big/Dangerous Game you can get in North America. Choose your hardware with great care.

If you are hunting, you can use something in the 30-06, 300 Mag, 270 or 7mm range. I would feel under powered unless it's a set shot from distance. But even then...dicey.

For "protection" or up-close hunting: 338 Mag, 375H&H, 416 or larger would be much more likely to have the "go-away Boo-Boo" power you are looking for.

First, I would like to say that this is one of the most amusing threads that I have yet to read, here on Sherdog. Second, I would like to say that the winner of the correct answer, and "yes there is one" goes to the person who posted the above quote. And, the answer was available all the way back on page two.

There are two categories of dangerous game rifles. Rifles for hunting dangerous game, and rifles for protection against dangerous game. Hence, we come to the crux of the matter. Shot placement in both areas is important, however, the answer lies in terminal ballistics. Killing power and stopping power are two completely different things. Stopping power requires a large caliber, high velocity bullet with sufficient sectional density to reach vital organs, and enough expansion capability to transmit sufficient kinetic energy. That energy causes large temporary, and permanent cavity disruption, and hydrostatic shock. The resulting shock will cause a blood pressure spike, and transmit the energy necessary to cause the animal to drop.

How do I know this you ask? Because, I have been shooting for over forty years, and large caliber African Dangerous Game rifles are one of my great passions. I currently own rifles chambered in .375 Ruger, .416 Remington Magnum, and .458 Lott. I also have a S&W 500 Magnum Revolver. While quite a few people carry a 12 guage shotgun with slugs while in Grizzly country, and this is certainly an option, it is probably based upon cost and shooter skill level. For what it is worth, here are my recommendations for suitable firearms. Starting at the minimum:

* Marlin 1895M Lever Action Guide Rifle, in .450 Marlin.
* Browning BAR Semi-Auto Rifle, in .338 Win. Mag.
* Winchester Model 70 Classic Safari Express, in .375 H&H, .416 Rem. Mag., or .458 Win. Mag.
* Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan, in .375 or .416 Ruger.
Or, my personal favorite,
* Ruger M77MKII Bolt Action Magnum Rifle, in .458 Lott.

Handguns are nice, but require greater proficiency at closer ranges. I hope this helps, and it certainly has been fun!

:icon_chee

 

[Varth]

Well I'm pretty sure you can take out almost anythings with a few shots to the head.

 

[Doughbelly]

Well I'm pretty sure you can take out almost anythings with a few shots to the head.

No. This is why you guys who don't know, need to STFU. I mean that in the politest way possible.

If you're out fly fishing in Alaska and you need to engage a bear that's come too close and is threatening you, you need a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs. 12 gauge with 3" bear slugs is as close as it gets to the standard self defense load in Alaskan bear country. That was the advice I was given when I spent several weeks in Alaska on a canoe and almost everyone I met who wasn't actually looking for a bear to shoot, including the rangers, guides and old hands had the same idea.

None of the guys who were actually hunting bear carried anything smaller than a 375H&H.

 

[Artigo]

Awp

 

[jerrylundergard]

No. This is why you guys who don't know, need to STFU. I mean that in the politest way possible.

If you're out fly fishing in Alaska and you need to engage a bear that's come too close and is threatening you, you need a 12 gauge with Brenneke slugs. 12 gauge with 3" bear slugs is as close as it gets to the standard self defense load in Alaskan bear country. That was the advice I was given when I spent several weeks in Alaska on a canoe and almost everyone I met who wasn't actually looking for a bear to shoot, including the rangers, guides and old hands had the same idea.

None of the guys who were actually hunting bear carried anything smaller than a 375H&H.

So you dont think a .22lr to the dome would stop a brownie? Theres a little indian girl in canada that shot the largest one EVER that disagrees.

Also, how do you fly fish with a shotgun? Have it on your back with a sling? That doesnt sound very comfortable and unless I was fly fishing right next to booboo, down right silly.

Ya id rather have a nice rifle, but if im fishing in alaska ill take a g20 or better yet 44 mag. Walking the brush, Id settle for a possee and a 30-06. Fucking around with some distance, ill plink it with a 308, even my ak47 if I thought I wouldnt get busted by the wardens.

My 7.62x39 has been tried in russia countless times on their brown bears and worked, I doubt ours are any tuffer.

 

[Doughbelly]

So you dont think a .22lr to the dome would stop a brownie? Theres a little indian girl in canada that shot the largest one EVER that disagrees.

Also, how do you fly fish with a shotgun? Have it on your back with a sling? That doesnt sound very comfortable and unless I was fly fishing right next to booboo, down right silly.

Ya id rather have a nice rifle, but if im fishing in alaska ill take a g20 or better yet 44 mag. Walking the brush, Id settle for a possee and a 30-06. Fucking around with some distance, ill plink it with a 308, even my ak47 if I thought I wouldnt get busted by the wardens.

My 7.62x39 has been tried in russia countless times on their brown bears and worked, I doubt ours are any tuffer.

I didn't say anything of the sort. Try reading, not skimming. It seems that most of your reply had nothing to do with what I actually wrote.

There's stories of native Alaskan and Canadian Inuit kids dropping polars and browns, but that doesn't mean that should be what you're carrying if you're looking for trouble. And no, I don't think a .22LR will penetrate a brown bear's skull consistenly.

And where did I imply carrying a shotgun while actually fishing? That's just absurd. But yeah, most guys who I met who were fishing had a shotgun, rifle and/or bear spray. Not necessarily on them but definitely nearby. Usually a shotgun.

 

[jerrylundergard]

Taken from Alaska Division of Fish and Game, where they issue brown bear permits.

Big magnums not needed

Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaskan game. This is simply not true. The recoil and noise of these large cartridges is unpleasant at best and plainly painful to many shooters. It is very difficult to concentrate on shot placement when your brain and body remembers the unpleasant recoil and noise which occurs when you pull the trigger on one of the big magnums.

The two most common complaints of professional Alaskan guides are hunters who are not in good physical condition and hunters who cannot accurately shoot their rifles. Because they do not practice enough they cannot shoot accurately enough. They miss their best chance at taking their dream animal or worse yet, they wound and lose an animal. Most experienced guides prefer the hunter come to camp with a .270 or .30-06 rifle they can shoot well rather than a shiny new magnum that has been fired just enough to get sighted-in. If you are going to hunt brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula or Kodiak Island, a .30-06 loaded with 200 or 220 grain Nosler

 

[Doughbelly]

Anyhow, I always thought it was funny people saying they needed rpgs and shit to kill brown bears.
Ive kinda talked myself into the remington 700 in 30-06. Not sure if its that first or the shotty. This summer ive got some tuff decisions to make.

Ding ding! That's a win for common sense, right?

Remington 700 in 30-06 sounds perfectly reasonable. Wouldn't work for me because that's not a round I have much experience with. Actually, I'm a terrible shot with rifles anyway. I've always been more comfortable with shotguns as a general purpose firearm. In other words, if it's my firearm of choice when it's my intent to shoot something not because I want to, but because I must. Especially if you don't know what that something is.

 

[Pulver-ize]

Taken from Alaska Division of Fish and Game, where they issue brown bear permits.

Big magnums not needed

Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaskan game. This is simply not true. The recoil and noise of these large cartridges is unpleasant at best and plainly painful to many shooters. It is very difficult to concentrate on shot placement when your brain and body remembers the unpleasant recoil and noise which occurs when you pull the trigger on one of the big magnums.

The two most common complaints of professional Alaskan guides are hunters who are not in good physical condition and hunters who cannot accurately shoot their rifles. Because they do not practice enough they cannot shoot accurately enough. They miss their best chance at taking their dream animal or worse yet, they wound and lose an animal. Most experienced guides prefer the hunter come to camp with a .270 or .30-06 rifle they can shoot well rather than a shiny new magnum that has been fired just enough to get sighted-in. If you are going to hunt brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula or Kodiak Island, a .30-06 loaded with 200 or 220 grain Nosler

 

[jerrylundergard]

Maybe some should read this before making bad decisions..

1. Dangerous game rifles

2.Rifle Selection For Bears

Ill post some more data incase someone is spooked into thinking they need a huge magnum even if they couldnt hit the broad side of the barn with it. Funny thing is, Mr. Chuck hawk sorta contradicts himself in this article. In his dangerous game article his all up on the 338 and super duper magnum nut tip. However, in his review of sectional densities he states "But many may be surprised to find that the heavy weight bullets for the common 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 calibers are right in there with the best medium bore and elephant gun bullets. Which may help explain why these small bore calibers are so versatile."

Load fucking selection and shot placement trump the badest ass magnum elephant gun that noone shoots well anyday! In case yall didnt know, SD and velocity decide penetration. The 30-06 isnt pushing 180 or 200 grainers more than 100-150fps more than the 308s and have nearly identical SD, meaning, they have nearly identical penetration capabilities. The 30-06 has been dropping brownies in Alaska for 100 years!!!!!!! Compare that with 338 win mag at 2900fps and 30-06 at 2700fps or so and the same SD and you can see penetration will be nearly identical with the almighty 338 win mag.

Mr. chuck hawks article
The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets

By Chuck Hawks

Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle, and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.

SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber--shape does not affect SD. This information is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets.

Here are some typical hunting bullets and their sectional densities, which are recognized as effective for medium size big game animals:

.243" (6mm) 90 grain, SD .218
.243" (6mm) 100 grain, SD .242
.257" (.25) 100 grain, SD .216
.257" (.25) 115 grain, SD .249
.264" (6.5mm) 120 grain, SD .247
.277" (.270) 130 grain, SD .242
.284" (7mm) 140 grain, SD .248
.308" (.30) 150 grain, SD .226
.308" (.30) 165 grain, SD .248
.321" (8mm) 170 grain, SD .236
.338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250
.358" (.35) 200 grain, SD .223

As you can see, all of the above have a sectional density over .215, and the average is about .237. That is the kind of SD you should look for in a bullet for medium game.

For large game bullets with higher sectional density should be chosen. Good examples of such bullets would be:

.264" (6.5mm) 140 grain, SD .287
.277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279
.284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283
.308" (.30) 180 grain, SD .271
.321" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
.338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281
.358" (.35) 250 grain, SD .279
.375" (.375) 270 grain, SD .274
.458" (.45) 400 grain, SD .272

All of the bullets immediately above have a sectional density over .270. The average SD of these bullets is about .279. Bullets of this sectional density, if well constructed, have proven able to penetrate deep into big game animals.

I did a quick survey of the hunting bullets with SD's over .300 available in common factory loads and to the reloader in the various rifle calibers. These are the top calibers and bullet weights for maximum penetration:

.264" (6.5mm) 160 grain, SD .328
.284" (7mm) 175 grain, SD .310
.308" (.30) 200 grain, SD .301
.308" (.30) 220 grain, SD .331
.321" (8mm) 220 grain, SD .301
.338" (.338) 250 grain, SD .313
.375" (.375) 300 grain, SD .305
.416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330
.458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341

Most people will not be surprised to find the heavy .338, .375, .416, and .458 bullets on the above list. But many may be surprised to find that the heavy weight bullets for the common 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 calibers are right in there with the best medium bore and elephant gun bullets. Which may help explain why these small bore calibers are so versatile.

 

[s.p.e.c.t.r.e.]

for taking down an angry grizzly... this should do the trick

 

[Pulver-ize]

Ill post some more data incase someone is spooked into thinking they need a huge magnum even if they couldnt hit the broad side of the barn with it. Funny thing is, Mr. Chuck hawk sorta contradicts himself in this article. In his dangerous game article his all up on the 338 and super duper magnum nut tip. However, in his review of sectional densities he states "But many may be surprised to find that the heavy weight bullets for the common 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 calibers are right in there with the best medium bore and elephant gun bullets. Which may help explain why these small bore calibers are so versatile."

Load fucking selection and shot placement trump the badest ass magnum elephant gun that noone shoots well anyday! In case yall didnt know, SD and velocity decide penetration. The 30-06 isnt pushing 180 or 200 grainers more than 100-150fps more than the 308s and have nearly identical SD, meaning, they have nearly identical penetration capabilities. The 30-06 has been dropping brownies in Alaska for 100 years!!!!!!! Compare that with 338 win mag at 2900fps and 30-06 at 2700fps or so and the same SD and you can see penetration will be nearly identical with the almighty 338 win mag.

Mr. chuck hawks article
The Sectional Density of Rifle Bullets

By Chuck Hawks

Sectional density (SD) is the numerical result of a calculation that compares a bullet's weight to its diameter. To calculate a bullet's sectional density divide the bullet's weight (in pounds) by its diameter (in inches), squared. The higher the SD number the better the SD, and the heavier a bullet is in proportion to its diameter.

SD is important because it has a significant effect on penetration. Other things being equal (like impact velocity, bullet design and material, etc.) the higher the SD number, the better the bullet's penetration. In other words, a skinny bullet of a given weight tends to penetrate better than a fat bullet of the same weight, because it concentrates the same force on a smaller area of the target. For example, if other factors are equal, a 150 grain .270 bullet will penetrate better than a 150 grain .35 caliber bullet.

Penetration is important because the bullet must get well inside an animal to disrupt the functioning of its vital organs. A bullet that fails to penetrate the fur, skin, muscle, and bone necessary to reach the vital organs is very unlikely to bring an animal down.

SD stays the same for all bullets of the same weight in the same caliber--shape does not affect SD. This information is important to remember when comparing rifle bullets.

Here are some typical hunting bullets and their sectional densities, which are recognized as effective for medium size big game animals:

.243" (6mm) 90 grain, SD .218
.243" (6mm) 100 grain, SD .242
.257" (.25) 100 grain, SD .216
.257" (.25) 115 grain, SD .249
.264" (6.5mm) 120 grain, SD .247
.277" (.270) 130 grain, SD .242
.284" (7mm) 140 grain, SD .248
.308" (.30) 150 grain, SD .226
.308" (.30) 165 grain, SD .248
.321" (8mm) 170 grain, SD .236
.338" (.338) 200 grain, SD .250
.358" (.35) 200 grain, SD .223

As you can see, all of the above have a sectional density over .215, and the average is about .237. That is the kind of SD you should look for in a bullet for medium game.

For large game bullets with higher sectional density should be chosen. Good examples of such bullets would be:

.264" (6.5mm) 140 grain, SD .287
.277" (.270) 150 grain, SD .279
.284" (7mm) 160 grain, SD .283
.308" (.30) 180 grain, SD .271
.321" (8mm) 200 grain, SD .274
.338" (.338) 225 grain, SD .281
.358" (.35) 250 grain, SD .279
.375" (.375) 270 grain, SD .274
.458" (.45) 400 grain, SD .272

All of the bullets immediately above have a sectional density over .270. The average SD of these bullets is about .279. Bullets of this sectional density, if well constructed, have proven able to penetrate deep into big game animals.

I did a quick survey of the hunting bullets with SD's over .300 available in common factory loads and to the reloader in the various rifle calibers. These are the top calibers and bullet weights for maximum penetration:

.264" (6.5mm) 160 grain, SD .328
.284" (7mm) 175 grain, SD .310
.308" (.30) 200 grain, SD .301
.308" (.30) 220 grain, SD .331
.321" (8mm) 220 grain, SD .301
.338" (.338) 250 grain, SD .313
.375" (.375) 300 grain, SD .305
.416" (.416) 400 grain, SD .330
.458" (.45) 500 grain, SD .341

Most people will not be surprised to find the heavy .338, .375, .416, and .458 bullets on the above list. But many may be surprised to find that the heavy weight bullets for the common 6.5mm, 7mm and .30 calibers are right in there with the best medium bore and elephant gun bullets. Which may help explain why these small bore calibers are so versatile.

So according to you,, all those magnum calibers out there are a waste,,, and have no purpose.. E-mc2,, Energy equils mass times aceleration.. Theres a reason the big bore rounds were invented,,, there was a need..

Go ahead and shoot that charging angry grizzly bear with 270s or 30-06.. I'll read about you as soon as a hiker finds whats left..

"""IF""" the thing was just walking along minding its own business and you shot it from a tree or blind broadside,, I will acknowledge a 30-06 will do the job (IMO its on the low side but still should work) but we're not talking about hunting..

If (like the thread title states) the grizzly is angry you had better sit it down before it sits you down.. That is done with a big bore and even then you still could get mauled before it dies.. Why some are willing to trust their lives to something that "may" do the job to something that will do the job is beyond me..

And if you cant handle a big bore dont walk in places where youre gonna need one... Take a 308 to a musk ox hunt and your guides helpers will beat you with it..

 

[Psychosis]

The biggest gun you can find

 

[easternbloc7]

1st choice:

2nd choice:

 

[jerrylundergard]

So according to you,, all those magnum calibers out there are a waste,,, and have no purpose.. E-mc2,, Energy equils mass times aceleration.. Theres a reason the big bore rounds were invented,,, there was a need..

Go ahead and shoot that charging angry grizzly bear with 270s or 30-06.. I'll read about you as soon as a hiker finds whats left..

"""IF""" the thing was just walking along minding its own business and you shot it from a tree or blind broadside,, I will acknowledge a 30-06 will do the job (IMO its on the low side but still should work) but we're not talking about hunting..

If (like the thread title states) the grizzly is angry you had better sit it down before it sits you down.. That is done with a big bore and even then you still could get mauled before it dies.. Why some are willing to trust their lives to something that "may" do the job to something that will do the job is beyond me..

And if you cant handle a big bore dont walk in places where youre gonna need one... Take a 308 to a musk ox hunt and your guides helpers will beat you with it..

If I was worried about a charge I would use a 12 gauge. 338 doesnt give you anything on a angry grizz that a 30-06 dont. Even a 375, the hole diameter difference is miniscule. A 308/270 will penetrate the same as the others on grizz. 308 is the most accurate gun around.

If your such a bitch you need a howitzer to hang in the woods I woulda enjoyed ass raping your family in front of your face before scalping your bitch ass back in the day. They been killing brownies up in alaska with 30-06 for a 100 years you dumb fuck! What do you suppose a 308 wont do a 30-06 does? You ever wonder why all rifle matchs are won with 308s???????? Its not cause their all abunch of ***s compared to your bitch ass, I guarantee you that.

 

[Barut]

If I was worried about a charge I would use a 12 gauge. 338 doesnt give you anything on a angry grizz that a 30-06 dont. Even a 375, the hole diameter difference is miniscule. A 308/270 will penetrate the same as the others on grizz. 308 is the most accurate gun around.

If your such a bitch you need a howitzer to hang in the woods I woulda enjoyed ass raping your family in front of your face before scalping your bitch ass back in the day. They been killing brownies up in alaska with 30-06 for a 100 years you dumb fuck! What do you suppose a 308 wont do a 30-06 does? You ever wonder why all rifle matchs are won with 308s???????? Its not cause their all abunch of ***s compared to your bitch ass, I guarantee you that.

You're wrong.

A .338 win mag loaded with 250gr projectiles has a muzzle energy of almost 4k ft/lbs. A 30-06 with 200gr projectiles has 1k ft/lbs less. They may penetrate equally, but that's only half the battle. You need to transfer massive amounts of energy to stop an animal that is angry/charging. It's more that simple penetration.

You're wrong about the .308 too. Look up the 6.5-.284 for a true bench rest cartridge.

 

[jerrylundergard]

Does energy transfer really stop a creature? Ive been finding that its either busted bones, bleeding out or direct CNS shot. I do see an arguement for ballistic pressure wave but noting on energy transfer. We all know knock down power is a farse cause anything that would knock down what your shooting at would also knock you down, basic physics.

Ill have to check that round out, Barut. Most of the matchs ive seen data on are guys using 308s. They basically put the 30-06 out of business cause their 2xs as accurate. Its why they had to make the targets half the size, when people started winning with the 308.

6.5x55 swedish mauser also has a great rep. Those nordic folks shot nearly every last polar bear with it, I guess they didnt get the you need a big bore memo.

The best evidence of all about the importance of accuracy and placement is that feller down in africa that killed all the elephants as his business WDM Bell. His stats on killing elephant:

Bell recorded all of his kills and shots fired. It was a business to him, not pleasure, and he needed to record expenditures.

* He shot exactly 1,011 elephants with a series of six Rigby-made 7x57mm (.275 Rigby) rifles with 173 grain military ammo.
* He shot 300 elephants with a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5x54mm carbine.
* He shot 200 odd with the .303 and the 215 grain army bullet.
* He went to a .318 Westley Richards for a while, which is a cartridge firing a 250 grain bullet at about 2400 fps, but found the ammunition unreliable and returned to the 7mm.
* He also recorded that one of the reasons why he favored the 7x57 was that the ammunition was more reliable and he could not recall ever having a fault with it. Whereas British sporting ammunition, apart from the .303 military ammo, gave him endless trouble with splitting cases.
* The balance of his elephants were shot with this .318 and his .450/400 Jeffrey double rifle.
* He wrote about being able to drop an elephant with a light caliber rifle if he shot it in the same place that he would have shot it with a heavy rifle.
* It was unmentioned, but understood, that 7x57 ammunition cost a tenth the price of large caliber .450/400 Jeffrey cartridges and money is always a factor in business.

 

[Matt Beitz]

50 caliber, and hand grenades

 

[jerrylundergard]

The myth of energy transfer, by firearms tactical.
The Myth of Energy Transfer

A lovely quote off that site:
The concepts of placement and penetration are simple -- too simple for some people to accept -- but these factors are the most important in stopping a homicidal attack.