Hollande: Anti-Muslim, anti-Semitic acts must be punished

[LucasWithLidOff]

So Judaisms is a race now:icon_conf

No, but Jew is an ethnicity. Atheist jews are still jews.

 

[LucasWithLidOff]

Agreed. Jews openly brag about how they run the media, banks, Hollywood, influence governments etc but the second one of the goyim opens their eyes and says the same thing they are labelled an anti-Semite, racist, Nazi and have the ADL baying for their blood.

To know the truth about Judaism just look at their "holy" days commemorating their bloody victories over the gentiles or "goys". Passover, commemorating the murder of Egyptian first born, Hanukkah is a celebration of the genocide of Greeks, Purim is a celebration of the mass murder of innocent Persians, and the list goes on and on.

And Israel, well where do you start there with so many atrocities and hatred to choose from.

But dare mention any of this and your in big, big trouble. I think Voltaire said it best "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

Seeing as how I date a Jewish woman, I know plenty of Jews. I guess they don't feel comfortable enough around a gentile to brag about running the world to me since I've never once observed this behavior.

But you're the expert, right?

 

[Balto]

I am arguing the opposite. If somebody says they aren't a Muslim, they're not a Muslim. I would think somebody an idiot of the highest caliber if they think an Egyptian Copt is a "Muslim" (except in a very complex theological sense I won't bore everybody with ... ). 99.999% of people would think the same. They might *initially assume a copt is Muslim based on looks*, but if the person told them they were Christian, they wouldn't somehow think that's impossible or a contradiction, ZOMG a Middle Eastern Christian, nobody has ever heard of such a thing. There are assloads of Middle Eastern Christians. Millions. I really don't believe there's anybody so ignorant as to insist they are actually Muslim, even when they are claiming to be Christian.

Everybody is quite spectacularly clear that if they follow non-Muslim religions they aren't Muslim. Including those Muslims who, under the guise of takfir, are furiously identifying non-Muslims and slaying them by the assload as we speak. Even when they self-identify as Muslim, such as Shiites/Alawites/Ahmadi etc. Muslims themselves are quite monumentally clear that being Muslim is defined by your *religious belief*, not by ethnicity or race.

Witness the Western furor over the Muslim decimation of Christians in the Middle East right now. It's not like people's heads are exploding "wait, how can there be Christians in the Middle East, they are the Muslim race, who are these Christian Muslims." The whole idea of "Christian Muslim" is laughably, laughably ridiculous. And that's because everybody knows these are religions, not an intractable ethnic identity + a religious belief.

So yeah, you're certainly correct that people often *assume* your average Middle Easterner is Muslim. Statistics. But you can't take that assumption and then assume that people go around assuming there is a "Muslim identity" which attaches to individuals apart from their religious beliefs. They are just *assuming* the person holds Muslim religious beliefs. If they don't, they aren't Muslim. Likewise, when a white guy turns out to be Muslim (like one of the guys I train judo with), it's somewhat surprising, but not for an instant does anybody then think "you are actually not a Muslim." That would be sensationally offensive and ludicrous.

I will grant that most people seem to think Sikhs are Muslims, and that's largely because nobody knows what Sikhs are, they think they are a variety of Muslim like Sunni/Shiite/Sikh/Sufi etc. This is pretty sad since Sikhism is a really cool religion that deserves more press.

There are lots of idiots out there who think like that. There are quite a few. It is insanely ignorant, but so is all racism.

Plus ultimately, by far the most pressing practical problem with racism today is what other people assume about you automatically. It doesn't matter if the assumption is correct or not. It doesn't matter that the assumption would be pulled back at a later time after getting more information about them. Just the fact that it is made initially causes real damage.

Minorities are getting killed by the police because of what gets assumed about them. The police aren't taking the time to get to know them on a personal level before making an informed judgment of their character. They just see the physical characteristics and make a snap judgment.

When Muslims commit terrorist acts in the news, all the Muslim looking guys I know get worried. It doesn't matter if they are actually Muslim or not. They know what they look like, regardless of what they believe. And they've been around long enough to know the reaction that is inevitably coming.

 

[grimballer]

Agreed. Jews openly brag about how they run the media, banks, Hollywood, influence governments etc but the second one of the goyim opens their eyes and says the same thing they are labelled an anti-Semite, racist, Nazi and have the ADL baying for their blood.

To know the truth about Judaism just look at their "holy" days commemorating their bloody victories over the gentiles or "goys". Passover, commemorating the murder of Egyptian first born, Hanukkah is a celebration of the genocide of Greeks, Purim is a celebration of the mass murder of innocent Persians, and the list goes on and on.

And Israel, well where do you start there with so many atrocities and hatred to choose from.

But dare mention any of this and you're in big, big trouble. I think Voltaire said it best "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize."

damn, this is some straight david duke/stormfront shit!

sadly its true.

just how in any dictatorship you couldnt criticize the party in power the same applies in western world.

in western world you can criticize the party with power, but not ppl with power.

in europe you go to jail, in us you commit personal/professional suicide. so might as well let it slide

 

[Erik Freydis]

Seeing as how I date a Jewish woman, I know plenty of Jews. I guess they don't feel comfortable enough around a gentile to brag about running the world to me since I've never once observed this behavior.

But you're the expert, right?

I'm not talking about ordinary Jews, many of whom are not religious, but the Zionist lobby who have a ridiculous amount of power and influence. I don't see how this can be denied, just look at American foreign policy, it is largely based around the wants and needs of Israel.

 

[weed]

Seeing as how I date a Jewish woman, I know plenty of Jews. I guess they don't feel comfortable enough around a gentile to brag about running the world to me since I've never once observed this behavior.

But you're the expert, right?

your analogy doesn't apply. people say America runs the world, I'm an American - I don't hold any of that power.

you can't deny Jewish folk have have a powerful influence in the US - media, banking etc.

you factor in bias just because your "girlfriend" is Jewish, that much is clear.

 

[MicroBrew]

T
Minorities are getting killed by the police because of what gets assumed about them. The police aren't taking the time to get to know them on a personal level before making an informed judgment of their character. They just see the physical characteristics and make a snap judgment.

It isn't minorities per say, it is primarily Black people and maybee native lookin Hispanics to a lesser extent.

 

[Balto]

It isn't minorities per say, it is primarily Black people and maybee native lookin Hispanics to a lesser extent.

Yes, the more exact term would be racially disadvantaged minorities. A group which, in modern day America, does not include Jews. At least not on any level that compares to the treatment that blacks and even Muslim looking brown people receive every day. Jews tend to get the same treatment as whites, i.e. just drive straight home, sir.

 

[Zankou]

Sure, but what they are assuming is that (a) because you are a member of a particular race; then (b) you are likely a member of a particular religion.

Which, empirically, is perfectly true. Just as white folk are usually Christian.

That doesn't mean there's a Christian race. Or a Muslim race. It just doesn't follow, and again essentially nobody has ever been confused about that. There may be some corners of the world, like Papua New Guinea, where people are confused about it, I suppose. Actually I take that back, that's an offense, they know of missionaries and are not nearly so dull-witted as to think that Christianity and Islam are races.

To me it's kind of interesting because people are so invested in finding race, because of its political usefulness, that they will try to create race even when both groups of people are swearing up and down that it's not race. Literally, nobody thinks Christianity is a race. Nobody thinks Muslim is a race. But people who are not Muslim will argue that "Muslim is a race" even though they happen not to believe it is a race, Muslims do not believe it is, and the people they are criticizing do not believe it is (for example, the Charlie Hebdo staff). They are just sure that SOME OTHER GUY holds this mistaken view that it's a race, and so then we get to criticize racism, and that is the holy grail after all.

So I would say stop trying to turn a genuine problem of *mistaken assumptions about an individual's presumed religious beliefs* into a *belief that being Muslim is not defined by the individual's personal religious beliefs*. It just doesn't work -- virtually nobody is confused on this point, no matter how egregious the separate problem of mistaken assumptions may be. It's like trying to argue that "Christian" is a race, it's a total failure from the get go, and no matter how much people want to find racism, no matter how deeply and devoutly they labor to find their precious, sometimes you have to just stop working so hard at it.

Now, if you want to say the racism problem is one towards negative stereotypes of Middle Easterners, there I agree with you -- that is indeed a problem. 100%. But you can't just substitute in Islam and try to get anti-Islamic speech as if they were conflated with anti-Middle Eastern racial prejudice. Doesn't work.

 

[weed]

^^ I had no idea Khabib Nurmagomegadeth was Muslim

 

[dissolved]

Welp, the sooner people realize that Islam is at a permanent war with civilization the better. The jihad has been a constant for 1400 years and is never going to change from their perspective. Islam isn't Budhism or Christianity or Hinduism and thus can't be treated as if it is.

 

[Balto]

So I would say stop trying to turn a genuine problem of *mistaken assumptions about an individual's presumed religious beliefs* into a *belief that being Muslim is not defined by the individual's personal religious beliefs*. It just doesn't work -- virtually nobody is confused on this point, no matter how egregious the separate problem of mistaken assumptions may be. It's like trying to argue that "Christian" is a race, it's a total failure from the get go.

I understand this, but it's a purely theoretical construct. A change in the explanatory model does not change the empirical results.

The reality on the ground is that popular backlash against Muslims hurts brown Muslim looking people the most. And they can't control the fact that they are brown Muslim looking.

Whether it is a true racial issue, an ethno-religious issue (like Jewish identity), or just the simple fact that the damage from racism is done by mistaken assumptions due to race -- the end result is the same.

 

[Balto]

Nobody thinks Muslim is a race. But people who are not Muslim will argue that "Muslim is a race" even though they happen not to believe it is a race, Muslims do not believe it is, and the people they are criticizing do not believe it is (for example, the Charlie Hebdo staff). They are just sure that SOME OTHER GUY holds this mistaken view that it's a race, and so then we get to criticize racism, and that is the holy grail after all.

Lol it's not just some hypothetical man.

I had lunch with a Muslim friend today. I mentioned this thread and wanted to get his reaction on it. He totally agreed that being Muslim has a huge racial component to it. He is a brown Muslim from Pakistan.

 

[Zankou]

Look, we probably agree on the hurtfulness of anti-Middle Eastern racial stereotypes. I'm sure we do. My only point here is that you can't then take Islam -- a religion with 1.6 billion followers and a mind boggling amount of diversity in its followers -- and argue that the religion is somehow exempt from criticism because it is inherently racist to criticize it. That, in itself, infantilizes and orientalizes Islam in a way that's just not acceptable. It's no more racist to criticize Islam than Christianity ... or Judaism, or Hinduism, or atheism.

 

[Zankou]

Lol it's not just some hypothetical man.

I had lunch with a Muslim friend today. I mentioned this thread and wanted to get his reaction on it. He totally agreed that being Muslim has a huge racial component to it. He is a brown Muslim from Pakistan.

Ask him if the guys who the Pakistanis are currently killing are "Muslim." Ask him if Caucasians are "Muslim." Guaranteed it turns out that people of every race can be Muslim. And people of every race can turn out *not* to be Muslim, which is why Pakistanis are being gunned down by other Pakistanis as we speak on that basis.

Again, a 'huge racial component' is masking the question of what that component actually is. I don't doubt this guy has experienced racial prejudice as a result of having brown skin. I just reject the idea that criticizing religion = criticizing race.

I suspect your friend would experience no racial prejudice if he was a white Muslim.

 

[Balto]

Look, we probably agree on the hurtfulness of anti-Middle Eastern racial stereotypes. I'm sure we do. My only point here is that you can't then take Islam -- a religion with 1.6 billion followers and a mind boggling amount of diversity in its followers -- and argue that the religion is somehow exempt from criticism because it is inherently racist to criticize it. That, in itself, infantilizes and orientalizes Islam in a way that's just not acceptable. It's no more racist to criticize Islam than Christianity ... or Judaism, or Hinduism, or atheism.

For sure you can criticize Islam. I criticize it all the time. There is a clearly a problem that it has right now creating so many radical terrorists.

I just don't see how those cartoons that I saw really contribute as constructive criticism. I'm far from the only one who has thought this either.

 

[MicroBrew]

Lol it's not just some hypothetical man.

I had lunch with a Muslim friend today. I mentioned this thread and wanted to get his reaction on it. He totally agreed that being Muslim has a huge racial component to it. He is a brown Muslim from Pakistan.

You can also have scenarios where a White looking Muslim person faces no awkward stares but a brown non Muslim might face stares because people think he is Muslim.

So it is race and isn't race because a non Muslim (Hindu,Sikh,Christian) can be mistaken for Muslim while a Muslim is accepted as White.

 

[Balto]

I suspect your friend would experience no racial prejudice if he was a white Muslim.

Certainly not.

Then he would probably be treated very similar to the way most Americans react to Jews.

 

[Balto]

You can also have scenarios where a White looking Muslim person faces no awkward stares but a brown non Muslim might face stares because people think he is Muslim.

So it is race and isn't race because a non Muslim (Hindu,Sikh,Christian) can be mistaken for Muslim while a Muslim is accepted as White.

Yep.

 

[MicroBrew]

For sure you can criticize Islam. I criticize it all the time. There is a clearly a problem that it has right now creating so many radical terrorists.

I just don't see how those cartoons that I saw really contribute as constructive criticism. I'm far from the only one who has thought this either.

The cartoons serve a useful purpose, to advance free speech and make it clear to Muslims that they can not terrorize and intimidate critics. If people drew caricatures of Hitler or the Klan, would that be considered to serve no usefull purpose and thus ill advised.