Hey Karate guys, thoughts on George Kotaka's "Kumite Academy?"

[Guestx]

So I'm training Shotokan and have a big interest in competing in the coming year (at least four times). It will be my first time competing in karate and I'm trying to really get a handle on the specific skills it takes to win these sorts of matches.

The biggest problem that I'm running into is that the group I'm training with doesn't place a great emphasis on competition. There is one other Shotokan school in the area, but they have few adult students, and the adult students they do have are not interested in competing. They are just in it for the fun and fitness.

There is one instructor at my school who has a big focus on competing, and I know I could learn a lot from him, but he has so much going on in his life that he only runs his class once or twice a month.

Long story short, there are no competition-focused schools in the area that really cater to adult students, so I've basically gone with the best that's available. However, it's become clear to me that I will need to pursue a lot of self-guided learning. I'll have to be a lone wolf of sorts, picking up as much as I can in class while also acting independently. I think this independence is going to extend to me traveling to enter a lot of tournaments alone with little actual support from my instructors (I don't say this in a derogatory way toward them, just matter of factly. Especially since when they do compete it's exclusively in tourneys put on by the school's organization. They never enter open tournaments or compete in rulesets that don't follow the standard Shotokan stop-point format.)

So, for those on here with experience in competition karate, I have two questions:

1. What advice do you have to give me regarding pursuing this ronin path of semi-self-guided learning?

2. I was browsing around, and found this promo for George Kotaka's "Kumite Academy." It looks like there might be a lot of useful vids on there and I'm thinking of subscribing and trying to integrate some of his stuff into my training. Thoughts?

 

[Harukaze]

Huh, I actually lived a few blocks away from George Kotaka's dojo several years ago.

Anyway, sorry I don't have more to contribute to this thread other than that. Good luck to you on your competition prep!

 

[Jukai]

First off, the DVD is going to be at least decent--- George Kotaka was the first guy since Tokey Hill to win a gold medal for America in the worlds... but I've never seen the video.
The only DVD I found very useful was John Fonseca's Kumite Concepts; the hand trapping and setup for sweeps were particularly excellent and something that I really wasn't taught.

The big problem with Fonseca's DVD was that you needed a partner for a lot of it... and from the looks of Kotaka's videos, it looks partner heavy as well.

Have you looked into Richard Amos' DVD set? It isn't partner heavy, and is designed specifically to teach you Karate without a guide... From all indications, there isn't a DVD that is even close if you want to self-train. Unfortunately, it doesn't look very competition based itself (Amos being more of a JKA guy and you're looking into WKF kumite).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I have no idea and I can't help you.

 

[Guestx]

First off, the DVD is going to be at least decent--- George Kotaka was the first guy since Tokey Hill to win a gold medal for America in the worlds... but I've never seen the video.
The only DVD I found very useful was John Fonseca's Kumite Concepts; the hand trapping and setup for sweeps were particularly excellent and something that I really wasn't taught.

The big problem with Fonseca's DVD was that you needed a partner for a lot of it... and from the looks of Kotaka's videos, it looks partner heavy as well.

Have you looked into Richard Amos' DVD set? It isn't partner heavy, and is designed specifically to teach you Karate without a guide... From all indications, there isn't a DVD that is even close if you want to self-train. Unfortunately, it doesn't look very competition based itself (Amos being more of a JKA guy and you're looking into WKF kumite).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I have no idea and I can't help you.

I'm not familiar with Richard Amos, but I'll check that out for sure. You bring up a good point about needing a partner for a lot of stuff. I'm trying to see what I can do about that. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone three doors down who likes to do karate or anything, and most of the local people who I think might potentially be interested in getting together for some out-of-dojo training are with our sister club about an hour away rather than the club I'm a member of (which has a lot of older guys).

I'm going to see if I can put together a small group, though. Because if I'm going to start competing, I need a lot of practice actually sparring with people.

Regarding WKF kumite, I know you've mentioned that it's different from JKA-style kumite but I can't really tell how. It seems to be pretty much the same thing to me. Can you explain the difference?

This is a highlight vid from a tournament held by the SKA (the org my dojo is a member of):





But what I basically want to put together a skillset that I can adapt to a variety of rulesets and variations. I'd actually like to not only do traditional karate competition but also continuous sparring competitions, like some light-contact kickboxing kind of stuff.

Lastly, Kotaka has a lot of DVDs, but the Kumite Academy isn't one of them. Basically you pay $30 a month (for the VIP package) and you get access to over 140 short videos on a variety of topics, including footwork, striking techniques and combinations, speed/ability/power drills and exercises, partner drills, etc. One thing I like is his emphasis on speed and how to develop speed, because I am just not fast enough. I also really need to find a way to improve my reaction time.

Here are some of the free vids he's released that are part of the series (more here: http://kumiteacademy.com/free-videos/):

 

[Jukai]

I'm not familiar with Richard Amos, but I'll check that out for sure.

Ignore the marketing bullshit, and listen to some of the commentary that Amos gives: it is remarkably detailed. I have never come across a bad review of it.
Now, there are three things to consider: I've never seen it or used it... I am incredibly biased towards Sensei Amos... and all five volumes will run you over 100 bucks.
But if you're looking for a good resource to train alone with, I don't really know of anything better.

You bring up a good point about needing a partner for a lot of stuff. I'm trying to see what I can do about that. Unfortunately, I don't have anyone three doors down who likes to do karate or anything, and most of the local people who I think might potentially be interested in getting together for some out-of-dojo training are with our sister club about an hour away rather than the club I'm a member of (which has a lot of older guys).

I'm going to see if I can put together a small group, though. Because if I'm going to start competing, I need a lot of practice actually sparring with people.

If you're serious about the art, you may want to consider making the drive, unless it's realistically impossible. Video and a kata-only Karate dojo won't get you very far alone.

Regarding WKF kumite, I know you've mentioned that it's different from JKA-style kumite but I can't really tell how. It seems to be pretty much the same thing to me. Can you explain the difference?

Here is an example of a JKA style tournament:

It revolves around the scoring system of 'half-point, full-point' or 'Waza-ari/Ippon'. An ippon is award for am attack with proper execution and power, proper distance and timing, proper posture and stance, and "spirit" (which I guess is who can scream loud enough). Waza-ari is an attack with only some of those aspects, but deserving enough to get some credit (so they award you a half point)
One ippon or two waza-ari win the match... I remember losing the final fight in a regional tournament in roughly three seconds. A quick grab of the hand and reverse punch to the head. It sucks.
Now THIS is an example of a WKF style tournament:

It is an 8-point kumite scoring system (not the first to get to eight points, but the first to be eight points over the other competitor--- mostly, time expires every match unless someone is completely outclassed). An ippon is scored as three points and is scored by a head kick or attacking a swept/thrown opponent. A waza-ari is two points and you get it with a body kick. One point attacks are 'yuko' and they are punches. These are awarded depending on form and application, timing, distance, and "sporting attitude" which not only means yelling, but completely disregarding all form and turning around to celebrate to try and convince the refs you scored a point.

Needless to say, you can see some differences: the JKA style competitions are more grounded, less bouncing, more explosive but with far less movement mostly to hide any sign of telegraphing. WKF is bouncy, completely dependent on constant movement and depends more on agility than explosiveness.
The rules generally determine the attacks that are drilled, as well as the common stance: High level WKF fighters like to fight more out of a completely bladed stance to erase all target area and have incredible linear movement but almost rarely has lateral movement outside of sharp jumps to the side. Because kicks are higher scoring techniques, there is a focus on being able to kick in all sorts of flashy ways (a lot more with the front leg too--- lead leg roundhouse kicks are rarely scoring techniques in JKA tournaments). The rules also allow for a fair amount of clinch work, which is new and changes just about every year so don't ask me to explain it. Still should be noted that judo techniques are becoming far more common in WKF style tournaments.
JKA fighters tend to be slightly more squared (but still very bladed) and way more rigid because one wrong move could mean the exit of the tournament. They are explosive but never chase or blitz like some WKF guys; the movement can be a lot more circular to try and get the opponent out of position, but kicks are more linear and there are some minor adjustments because it is less telegraphed but not as dynamic (especially at body level-- the common JKA roundhouse body kick chamber is very short and there is very little hip turn during the entire thing, while the WKF body roundhouse kick is generally fully chambered and whipped around the same way as the head kick). Grabbing isn't allowed for more than the movement you are trying to accomplish (if you can't hip toss or trip in one motion, you need to let go of the gi).
There is also almost no contact allowed in WKF tournaments. This leads to assholes flopping down on the ground whenever they feel their noses touched. JKA doesn't have that problem as much, you can get penalized for excessive contact but if they feel the other person has walked into it or it clipped him at the end of your range and he's just a whiner, they will award you the point.

The WKF is always trying to become an olympic sport, so they are constantly evolving their ruleset with changes almost every year--- but more to appease the spectators than to stay true to the art. On the other hand, the JKA doesn't seem to evolve at all. Ignore my rant. If I had to give an opinion, the JKA breeds much tougher fighters... but I far preferred competing in the WKF tournaments. With all the bullshit that goes on and all the rules that contradict themselves, it's just WAY more fun when you aren't going home the first second of the elimination round.

Machida competed for the JKA. Gunnar trained for the WKF.

I unfortunately don't know what rule system the SKA uses, if either.

But what I basically want to put together a skillset that I can adapt to a variety of rulesets and variations. I'd actually like to not only do traditional karate competition but also continuous sparring competitions, like some light-contact kickboxing kind of stuff.

Well, what fighters do you want to imitate? You may want to get out of Shotokan and into more sport Karate, like an NBL afiliate

Lastly, Kotaka has a lot of DVDs, but the Kumite Academy isn't one of them. Basically you pay $30 a month (for the VIP package) and you get access to over 140 short videos on a variety of topics, including footwork, striking techniques and combinations, speed/ability/power drills and exercises, partner drills, etc. One thing I like is his emphasis on speed and how to develop speed, because I am just not fast enough. I also really need to find a way to improve my reaction time.

Here are some of the free vids he's released that are part of the series (more here: http://kumiteacademy.com/free-videos/):

To be honest, you can't go wrong with that much material for 30 a month. Go for it and see how you like it, you can always cancel immediately.

 

[shinkyoku]

Regarding WKF kumite, I know you've mentioned that it's different from JKA-style kumite but I can't really tell how. It seems to be pretty much the same thing to me. Can you explain the difference?

They allow the same techniques and the same striking areas and roughly the same contact (JKA used to allow slightly harder contact, but there is really not that much difference. A KO and you are disqualified in either).

JKA use ippon shobu. You fight to one point. you score either one point for a good hit or a half point for a merely decent one. Any legal techniques -no difference what it is.
WKF first changed this to sanbon shobu, where the only difference was that the match went on to 3 full point -allowing fighter more room for taking chances. (many smaller organizations still use this system, but not WKF anymore). They also add silly thin foam gloves.

Then WKF tried to appease the Olympic committee by making it more appealing to audience. They did this by setting fixed scores for different techniques -low scores for simple punches (1 point), high scores for flashy high kicks or sweeps/throws with followup (3 points). They also changed the scoring so that you won when taking the LEAD by 8 points, with no upper limit -meaning the fight could last a long time.
They also added a lot of padding (which is interesting considering they disqualify for too heavy contact)..

This means JKA guys use simple techniques and takes few chances -usually punches and countering with punches.There is usually a lot of standing still waiting for the other to move first in order to counter.
WKF guys tries for spectacular techniques -usually kicks as one of them equal 3 successful punches. And they are more prepared to take risks as they can not lose everything on one hit. They usually bounce around a lot, also preferring the other to move first, but not standing still as the JKA guys prefer, but more trying to fool the other with feints and fake moves.
A little cliche description, but that is basically it.

 

[Jukai]

They also add silly thin foam gloves.

Ha, screw you man, I love those gloves

 

[Azam]

Kotaka's instructionals are probably a great resource to improve your own training but I think the question here is it worth $30 a month - I mean that's what it comes down to.

There are great resources all over the net like for example masao kagawa instructional on youtube which is free. It might not have as much depth in kumite/footwork drills but there are also plenty of videos/footage of footwork drills from a variety of karateka.

My advice on the competition front would be get guys who are familiar with you - to aid you/help prepare you for competitions because you're going to have to get a lot of sparring in & that's not possible if you're by yourself - maybe you should just speak to your instructors about you wanting to compete - I'm sure they would be accommodating & arrange something for you - I mean you won't know till you ask.

 

[Jukai]

Kagawa's DVD is on youtube? I only see a few clips from it..

 

[Azam]

Kagawa's DVD is on youtube? I only see a few clips from it..

There's some more - I downloaded them & saved them to my desktop

 

[Guestx]

Jukai,

Thanks for the very detailed post. You're definitely one of the main go-to guys around here for this kind of thing. I'm going to try to address some of your main points.

1. The Amos video looked good. You said you're "incredibly biased" toward him. Why is that?

2. Luckily, things aren't quite as dire in my dojo as it being kata only. We actually do spar in most classes, for maybe 15 minutes or so at the end. Sometimes this is competition stop-point style and sometimes it's free sparring. We also do a lot of single-attack drills and the like, which I have found helpful. So it's not that I'm not learning some good things there, but sparring and competition is just a small component of the overall curriculum.

In regard to going down to the BYU campus (which is where our sister club is, with the younger guys) I'm going to need to see when they practice. I've been invited down, but I'm not sure I can get there in time since I don't get off work until 5:30. I'll have to see about that.

3. Thanks for the examples of JKA vs WKF. I see some differences for sure, and yet, at the same time it looks more or less the same. It seems, from what I can tell, the biggest difference is in the way that techniques are scored. Otherwise, it's the same techniques that actually do score.

I do have one question: In the WKF vid, why didn't the guy get his points for landing the roundhouse at 1:55? Also, why did the blue guy win in the end when the score was tied?

I can definitely see what you mean about the WKF system being more fun. I think a single strike probably shouldn't determine the entirety of a match. It seems like it would be best 2 out of 3 at least or something like that.

4. As far as what fighters I want to imitate, well, Machida was one of the main reasons I got interested in Karate. I did taekwondo growing up and have always leaned more toward traditional styles than more modern styles or something like MMA. After I started really researching Shotokan, the whole philosophy behind treating your opponent's arms and legs as swords appealed to me. At 5'6" and about 150 lbs I'm not a big guy so it's always been clear to me that I can't be out there taking big hits from guys bigger than me and so a style that emphasize staying away from your opponents strikes while counter attacking with a devastating blow made sense.

I often find my TKD background coming back to me though as I tend to kick a lot more than the other karatekas I've met. I like kicking and, in addition to traditional karate competition, like I said I would also like to do something that's more continuous in nature that would allow me to really get off with some kicks and chain some combos together.

Maybe something like this:





Now you said something about getting hooked up with an NBL affiliate. I actually did go out to a school that participates in a lot of NBL comps not too long ago. I had high hopes when I walked in the door but there were a number of problems. Now, I should preface this by saying that I support people doing whatever kind of martial arts they enjoy. I'm not one of those assholes who judges people because they don't do full contact or whatever. But at 32 years old, I definitely did not fit in at this place.

I was watching a class and there were only two or three non-blackbelt adults in this class of about 50 people. And after watching kids swing around glow in the dark nunchaku and hearing the head instructor talk about how he modifies the kata so that they'll be more impressive in competition for me to realize that I needed to move on. I was looking for something that was more traditional, serious and combat-oriented.

5. By the way, you have spent so much time involved with karate and know so much about it, but you don't train anymore from what I can recall. Why is that?

 

[Guestx]

Then WKF tried to appease the Olympic committee by making it more appealing to audience. They did this by setting fixed scores for different techniques -low scores for simple punches (1 point), high scores for flashy high kicks or sweeps/throws with followup (3 points). They also changed the scoring so that you won when taking the LEAD by 8 points, with no upper limit -meaning the fight could last a long time.
They also added a lot of padding (which is interesting considering they disqualify for too heavy contact)..

This means JKA guys use simple techniques and takes few chances -usually punches and countering with punches.There is usually a lot of standing still waiting for the other to move first in order to counter.

WKF guys tries for spectacular techniques -usually kicks as one of them equal 3 successful punches. And they are more prepared to take risks as they can not lose everything on one hit. They usually bounce around a lot, also preferring the other to move first, but not standing still as the JKA guys prefer, but more trying to fool the other with feints and fake moves.

A little cliche description, but that is basically it.

Thanks for all the info. That's very helpful.

I think I actually can get down with the WKF's reasoning on flashier techniques getting scored higher. It is, after all, a sport and not a street fight. The more difficult a technique is to land effectively the more points you should get for it in my opinion. I don't see any reason for a reverse punch and a spinning hook kick to be scored the same.

One thing I'm not really clear on is why one ruleset encourages a flat footed approach while the other goes the bouncy route. I mean, it seems like either one or the other would lead to more points scored on average and that both organizations would take this approach because fighters would want to maximize their chances of scoring.

 

[Guestx]

Kotaka's instructionals are probably a great resource to improve your own training but I think the question here is it worth $30 a month - I mean that's what it comes down to.

There are great resources all over the net like for example masao kagawa instructional on youtube which is free. It might not have as much depth in kumite/footwork drills but there are also plenty of videos/footage of footwork drills from a variety of karateka.

Ha ha ha!

The ironic thing about this is that I actually found out about Kotaka's site because of that video. I had found that video and realized it seemed to be some good shit but I don't speak Japanese. Then I went in search for a copy that I could buy with English subs. I found a site selling one (karate-dvd.com) and also saw a copy of George Kotaka's "Speed Drill" video.

So I went searching YouTube for Kotaka material and found his trailer/ad for his website and then ended up on his website.

To answer your question--Is it worth $30 a month?--I guess comes down to whether or not the material will ultimately help me to perform better than I otherwise would have in competitions. If the material will lead to wins, then I'd say yes.

I went ahead and subscribed. There's definitely some good, and very interesting, stuff on there. I think I'll probably maintain the subscription for 3 or 4 months until I feel like I've gotten from it about everything I can and then I'll cancel it. But for $30 it's a pretty rich library of material.

My advice on the competition front would be get guys who are familiar with you - to aid you/help prepare you for competitions because you're going to have to get a lot of sparring in & that's not possible if you're by yourself - maybe you should just speak to your instructors about you wanting to compete - I'm sure they would be accommodating & arrange something for you - I mean you won't know till you ask.

I've talked a bit with my instructors and they don't seem to know anyone locally. We are the only SKA dojo in the immediate area and they don't associate much with dojos from other organizations.

I'm going to keep looking for people, though. I know there have to be some guys around here with similar goals that I can connect with.

 

[Jukai]

1. The Amos video looked good. You said you're "incredibly biased" toward him. Why is that?

He was a friend of my dojo and I've met and trained under him countless times. He was a semi-legendary figure to me growing up, he had just come to America from Japan, the first white guy to graduate from Honbu's instructors program and one of the first few westerners to medal in the all-Japan tournaments (more because of ref bias than actual skill, but I digress)... and when you're talking to him, he's down to earth but still kind of exudes that whole "zen karate master" wiseness.
So yeah, he could put his face on toilet paper and I'd tell you that it would be the cleanest your ass can ever get. But the reviews of the DVD seem to back up my initial claim.

2. Luckily, things aren't quite as dire in my dojo as it being kata only. We actually do spar in most classes, for maybe 15 minutes or so at the end. Sometimes this is competition stop-point style and sometimes it's free sparring. We also do a lot of single-attack drills and the like, which I have found helpful. So it's not that I'm not learning some good things there, but sparring and competition is just a small component of the overall curriculum.

In regard to going down to the BYU campus (which is where our sister club is, with the younger guys) I'm going to need to see when they practice. I've been invited down, but I'm not sure I can get there in time since I don't get off work until 5:30. I'll have to see about that.

Yeah, the whole "working for a living" thing really fucks things up. Good luck on finding the right balance.

3. Thanks for the examples of JKA vs WKF. I see some differences for sure, and yet, at the same time it looks more or less the same. It seems, from what I can tell, the biggest difference is in the way that techniques are scored. Otherwise, it's the same techniques that actually do score.

They are both Karate and they both use the techniques of Shotokan at the heart of the rule system. The techniques are of course going to be the same (with the exception of the throws learned, and I've noticed that body kicks seem to have evolved slightly differently).
What is going to be truly differ is how you fight. Your timing and explosiveness is going to be much better if you train in a traditional JKA school, your agility and kicking arsenal will be much better if you go to a school that focuses on USNKF tournaments. You will adapt what you learn to the rule system you compete in.

I do have one question: In the WKF vid, why didn't the guy get his points for landing the roundhouse at 1:55? Also, why did the blue guy win in the end when the score was tied?

The kick at 1:55 didn't count because the ref had stopped the fight before the kick, most likely because there is a limit to the amount of time you can clinch and they had gone passed that time. It would have counted had they broke a split second earlier.
And if the end of the round is a tie, the four side refs decide who won the actual fight... if they can't, it goes to sudden death. At least, it was like that a couple of years ago.

I can definitely see what you mean about the WKF system being more fun. I think a single strike probably shouldn't determine the entirety of a match. It seems like it would be best 2 out of 3 at least or something like that.

The whole idea is that a single strong strike or two decent strikes should disable the opponent... you only award points to the technique that, if launched at full strength, would incapacitate an opponent (also, this rule inherently allows for a greater amount of contact, as you can disable an opponent with a good ippon and actually win the match and move forward--- instead of losing the match but the other guy can't move forward. Of course, as Azam mentioned, the amount of contact allowed has diminished).
Obviously, this leads to INCREDIBLY tentative fighters and some fights that are a minute and a half of staring and slight feint movements and five seconds of action. Not a good spectator sport to try and bring forward to the Olympics.

I often find my TKD background coming back to me though as I tend to kick a lot more than the other karatekas I've met. I like kicking and, in addition to traditional karate competition, like I said I would also like to do something that's more continuous in nature that would allow me to really get off with some kicks and chain some combos together.

Maybe something like this:

Now you said something about getting hooked up with an NBL affiliate. I actually did go out to a school that participates in a lot of NBL comps not too long ago. I had high hopes when I walked in the door but there were a number of problems. Now, I should preface this by saying that I support people doing whatever kind of martial arts they enjoy. I'm not one of those assholes who judges people because they don't do full contact or whatever. But at 32 years old, I definitely did not fit in at this place.

I was watching a class and there were only two or three non-blackbelt adults in this class of about 50 people. And after watching kids swing around glow in the dark nunchaku and hearing the head instructor talk about how he modifies the kata so that they'll be more impressive in competition for me to realize that I needed to move on. I was looking for something that was more traditional, serious and combat-oriented.

I feel you, but it's organizations like the NBL and NASKA that are going to have things like that continuous ITF-ike sparring. I don't know if you can compete those tournaments without being affiliated with the gym though...
The whole ideology of "arms and legs are swords" is that one or two shots and you are dead. Continuous doesn't exist. That is why the JKA does half-point, full-point. You get away from your opponents attacks at all costs... why do you think Machida is so untouchable?

5. By the way, you have spent so much time involved with karate and know so much about it, but you don't train anymore from what I can recall. Why is that?

Well, partially for the same reason as you... when I went to college, I looked for a karate dojo that I liked, and all I found was non-sparring Shotokan dojos or sport-Karate horror shows. I still competed for a year or two, but I began trying my hand at other things--- namely Kyokushin, boxing, and kickboxing. I got especially hooked on kickboxing but my grades began to dip at the end of college and I made a choice to sure up my grades and lay off competing in any form of combat sport.
Then I got into the real world, and I either worked nightshift or a revolving shift, like I'm doing now, working another four hours on New Years (Happy New Years from my cubicle, by the way). This is not conducive for any type of combat sports training on the regular.
The end of my contract for my current company is coming up, and it looks like I may get a nine to five day shift job... Going to look to pick something up. I doubt it will be back in Karate though--- I will probably try my hand in a grappling art, just so I know what the hell I'm seeing when watching Mixed Martial arts.

 

[Guestx]

Yeah, the whole "working for a living" thing really fucks things up. Good luck on finding the right balance.

Thanks. You know, for about a 2 1/2 year stint I actually was self-employed and was able to pretty much make my own schedule as my job was the kind of thing I could do whenever I wanted and as much or as little as I wanted.

During that time, my main issue with finding a good school to train with was that no one offered day classes. I'm the type who wants to be in for the night after 7 or so, but I could happily hit up a martial arts class at noon and just hang around and train for two or three hours. I can remember a lot of stories from the old guys like Bill Wallace and Jerry Trimble about how they would be at the dojo three, four, sometimes five hours a day, just training their asses off. A lot of those guys would do that and get their black belts in just a year or two. You can't even find dojos like that anymore.

But I'm trying to find a way to get back to my previous freewheeling, self-employed ways where I can be more flexible with my training.

They are both Karate and they both use the techniques of Shotokan at the heart of the rule system. The techniques are of course going to be the same (with the exception of the throws learned, and I've noticed that body kicks seem to have evolved slightly differently).
What is going to be truly differ is how you fight. Your timing and explosiveness is going to be much better if you train in a traditional JKA school, your agility and kicking arsenal will be much better if you go to a school that focuses on USNKF tournaments. You will adapt what you learn to the rule system you compete in.

So what's the deal with the throws? Are some throws allowed in WKF-style comps but not in JKA-style comps?

And I guess here's the other thing that I have questions about: Since the scoring criteria are relatively similar, it seems that one way of fighting would be the best for both types of tournaments. I would especially think that in regard to timing and footwork, whatever would be best for one would also be best for the other.

I feel you, but it's organizations like the NBL and NASKA that are going to have things like that continuous ITF-ike sparring. I don't know if you can compete those tournaments without being affiliated with the gym though...

I'm pretty sure you can compete in NASKA and NBL tournaments without any affiliation. They are totally open as far as I've been able to tell. The biggest problem I have is that, at least of the vids I've seen, the continuous sparring events look like shit. You would think they would look like the ITF vid I posted but, at least of the ones that I've seen, they just don't. It's more like guys dancing around and doing the goofiest techniques. I dunno, maybe I just haven't seen the right vids.

I think something like this, which really doesn't resemble the NBL/NASKA stuff that much, is more along the lines of what I'm looking for:

The whole ideology of "arms and legs are swords" is that one or two shots and you are dead. Continuous doesn't exist. That is why the JKA does half-point, full-point. You get away from your opponents attacks at all costs... why do you think Machida is so untouchable?

Yes, I understand. And it's that combat philosophy that attracts me to karate. Like I said, I'm not a big guy. So I need a style that emphasizes evasion, staying away from your opponent, and striking when you can get a good clean hit without getting countered.

And it seems to me that, like with Machida, you could adapt this to most any kind of striking-based fighting. After all, in a continuous match, the same skills apply: Stay away from your opponent, evade his attacks and counter when you have an opening to get the point. Rinse and repeat.

I don't know how entertaining this would be for a crowd who wants to see Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots, but it seems that these are the fundamental skills that will lead to success regardless of the rules.

Well, partially for the same reason as you... when I went to college, I looked for a karate dojo that I liked, and all I found was non-sparring Shotokan dojos or sport-Karate horror shows. I still competed for a year or two, but I began trying my hand at other things--- namely Kyokushin, boxing, and kickboxing. I got especially hooked on kickboxing but my grades began to dip at the end of college and I made a choice to sure up my grades and lay off competing in any form of combat sport.

Then I got into the real world, and I either worked nightshift or a revolving shift, like I'm doing now, working another four hours on New Years (Happy New Years from my cubicle, by the way). This is not conducive for any type of combat sports training on the regular.

The end of my contract for my current company is coming up, and it looks like I may get a nine to five day shift job... Going to look to pick something up. I doubt it will be back in Karate though--- I will probably try my hand in a grappling art, just so I know what the hell I'm seeing when watching Mixed Martial arts.

That's interesting. I'm kind of surprised you did Kyokushin because I specifically remember you saying in a post once that "full contact is not for you."

Can you tell me about your kickboxing experience? I actually looked for a good kickboxing gym around here but the only thing I found was an MT place and I am just not interested in MT. It is, of course, a great form of fighting but I just want to do something different. So I was looking for a kickboxing place that would be karate and/or TKD based, but I came up with nothing.

I know in the old days, when American kickboxing was first taking root, kickboxers were expected to also be black belts and to have learned the kata and have a firm understanding of traditional karate (or TKD). That's the sort of place I would really feel most at home in, a kickboxing gym that taught in a way that was really rooted in a traditional style. But alas, these sorts of places seem to be few and far between now.

In any case, it seems to me that after putting so many years into it that you would always want to hold onto your karate background and would want to maintain a link to the karate world, even if you decided to do other things as well. But I do hope you can get back to training soon in whatever art you choose. I think it's important.

 

[shinkyoku]

One thing I'm not really clear on is why one ruleset encourages a flat footed approach while the other goes the bouncy route. I mean, it seems like either one or the other would lead to more points scored on average and that both organizations would take this approach because fighters would want to maximize their chances of scoring.

With mostly guesses to back it up as It was a LOOONG time since I did any point karate, I think it is a result of one rule system giving high scores for kicks and the other not doing so -mostly doing straight punches. Kicking is easier with a "bouncing" footwork (same reason you see it in TKD). If you primarily use hands, the footwork changes.

 

[Guestx]

With mostly guesses to back it up as It was a LOOONG time since I did any point karate, I think it is a result of one rule system giving high scores for kicks and the other not doing so -mostly doing straight punches. Kicking is easier with a "bouncing" footwork (same reason you see it in TKD). If you primarily use hands, the footwork changes.

Hmm, I actually didn't think of the effect/benefit of bouncing in regard to exploding into kicks but that makes perfect sense. I'm sure you're right that that's a major component of it.

I wonder how much extra energy all that bouncing around expends. If you had to fight multiple rounds, for instance, how much more quickly would the bouncer gas than the more flat footed guy provided both were in equally good shape.