"He's Carrying your weight"

[Stuart0502]

This is something that sometimes gets mentioned in the UFC by corner's.

Generally it's used to describe the idea that if a guy is on top, that will be less draining to his cardio than the guy who is working from the bottom.

I sometimes wonder how true this is though.

To look at one example, Chael Sonnen was on top of Anderson Silva for most of their first fight and he got subbed in the final round. That wasn't neccessarily because he gassed but it might have been a factor.

Do you think it's true or does it apply more on skills by skills basis. One skill that seems to be particularly draining to cardio is getting up from the bottom/wall walking to get back up.

 

[mattemate]

Wrong sub.

 

[Stuart0502]

Wrong sub.

Are you saying I should have posted in the UFC discussion forum?

 

[mattemate]

Are you saying I should have posted in the UFC discussion forum?

Yep, this is the grappling forum, not MMA. For the record, it's more dependent on position. You don't carry too much weight in full guard or half guard, especially if you have good hips. Sure, if a big guy is on top, you'll feel that, but if you're the same size more or less, not much difference. Side control, however, is a different animal. I can play closed guard for hours, but being held in side for a long time would suck.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Yep, this is the grappling forum, not MMA. For the record, it's more dependent on position. You don't carry too much weight in full guard or half guard, especially if you have good hips. Sure, if a big guy is on top, you'll feel that, but if you're the same size more or less, not much difference. Side control, however, is a different animal. I can play closed guard for hours, but being held in side for a long time would suck.

I don't necessarily agree. Working hard from any position will gas you out. If your only goal is to conserve energy in the closed guard, it's attainable. But if you're trying to attack submissions, you can definitely wear yourself out.

 

[mattemate]

I don't necessarily agree. Working hard from any position will gas you out. If your only goal is to conserve energy in the closed guard, it's attainable. But if you're trying to attack submissions, you can definitely wear yourself out.

Yes, but you wouldn't gas from carrying their weight. It would be from the other exertion.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yep, this is the grappling forum, not MMA. For the record, it's more dependent on position. You don't carry too much weight in full guard or half guard, especially if you have good hips. Sure, if a big guy is on top, you'll feel that, but if you're the same size more or less, not much difference. Side control, however, is a different animal. I can play closed guard for hours, but being held in side for a long time would suck.

Yeah retaining guard is absolutely critical vs. huge strong guys with an inkling of skill, if you don't like being crushed into bolivian. I feel like the heavier and stronger the guy, the more apparent the difference between guard and side control. There's a 285 lbs powerlifter blue belt at our gym who is strong as hell and built like a brick shithouse. For the brief period I can retain closed or HG against him (I'm 170 lbs) I feel OK. But once he inevitably smash passes into side control and applies shoulder pressure, it's like lying under a ton of bricks. It takes all of my cardio just to survive under him for a few minutes to the end of the round and if I'm already gassed out, I've had to tap to pressure from side control because he's both heavy and strong and knows how to use his weight.

But even from closed guard, a huge strong dude is putting a lot of weight on you. I was always impressed by guys like Royce giving up 80 lbs to world class wrestler and cross-trained judoka and sambist Dan Severn, spending 15 minutes with this beast on top of him and still having the gastank to sub him.

 

[rmongler]

I sometimes wonder how true this is though.

Not necessarily true.

Knowing how to ride such that you oblige your opponent to burn more energy than you do is a skill, and not every fighter is proficient in it.

 

[Calibur]

This is something that sometimes gets mentioned in the UFC by corner's.

Generally it's used to describe the idea that if a guy is on top, that will be less draining to his cardio than the guy who is working from the bottom.

I sometimes wonder how true this is though.

It's basically true. Gravity wins. The person on bottom has to work to keep weight off of them and the person on top does not. But just because you're on top doesnt mean you're invincible. one slip and you get tapped...like Chael Sonnen

 

[Calibur]

Yeah retaining guard is absolutely critical vs. huge strong guys with an inkling of skill, if you don't like being crushed into bolivian. I feel like the heavier and stronger the guy, the more apparent the difference between guard and side control. There's a 285 lbs powerlifter blue belt at our gym who is strong as hell and built like a brick shithouse. For the brief period I can retain closed or HG against him (I'm 170 lbs) I feel OK. But once he inevitably smash passes into side control and applies shoulder pressure, it's like lying under a ton of bricks. It takes all of my cardio just to survive under him for a few minutes to the end of the round and if I'm already gassed out, I've had to tap to pressure from side control because he's both heavy and strong and knows how to use his weight.

But even from closed guard, a huge strong dude is putting a lot of weight on you. I was always impressed by guys like Royce giving up 80 lbs to world class wrestler and cross-trained judoka and sambist Dan Severn, spending 15 minutes with this beast on top of him and still having the gastank to sub him.

I would never use closed guard against someone with a signifcant weight advantage. I'd burn out my hamstrings. Instead I'm keeping my feet on their hips or using some kind of knee shield

 

[ChickenBrother]

I would never use closed guard against someone with a signifcant weight advantage. I'd burn out my hamstrings. Instead I'm keeping my feet on their hips or using some kind of knee shield

My go to is knee shield but this dude just crushes that flat into side control. I've tried butterfly many times and same thing. I don't really like closed guard unless I'm absolutely gassed and just want to stall for a breather, which doesn't apply to this guy. I can't even turtle underneath him to deny the pass because his 115 lbs weight advantage is too much for me to carry and he's literally twice as strong as I am. He also likes ankle locks and kneebars and goes for them when I try to post on his hips. In a nutshell, I don't get much out of rolls with this dude other than pain and humility.

 

[sb413197]

My go to is knee shield but this dude just crushes that flat into side control. I've tried butterfly many times and same thing. I don't really like closed guard unless I'm absolutely gassed and just want to stall for a breather, which doesn't apply to this guy. I can't even turtle underneath him to deny the pass because his 115 lbs weight advantage is too much for me to carry and he's literally twice as strong as I am. He also likes ankle locks and kneebars and goes for them when I try to post on his hips. In a nutshell, I don't get much out of rolls with this dude other than pain and humility.

He sounds good.

Try leg lasso guard. As a bigger guy, that one is definitely the most frustrating, and I have the most trouble powering through it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

He sounds good.

Try leg lasso guard. As a bigger guy, that one is definitely the most frustrating, and I have the most trouble powering through it.

I'll try it next time I roll with him. I don't really play leg lasso or even know how to apply it properly (although looks kind of like spider guard to omoplata which I have drilled), but it can't be less successful than what I've been doing lol. I have a running joke with this dude that I'm going to keep trying random shit on him every time we roll until something sticks.

The problem is he's a legit blue (maybe close to purple) with 4 years BJJ and he's big and strong as shit with cardio to go a full round without gassing. I've rolled with 300+ lbs obese dudes and it's no problem because they can't just shut me down at every turn. The size and strength disparity is comparable to Big Nog vs. Bob Sapp but I'm nowhere near BB level. When this guy started training 4 years ago, I took his back and tapped him 3 times in the first roll and he had no idea what I was doing or how to stop it. But now that he's pretty good, it takes a massive skill advantage to even get position on him. I just want to troll him with a fluke sub out of nowhere for laughs.

 

[shunyata]

I'll try it next time I roll with him. I don't really play leg lasso or even know how to apply it properly (although looks kind of like spider guard to omoplata which I have drilled), but it can't be less successful than what I've been doing lol. I have a running joke with this dude that I'm going to keep trying random shit on him every time we roll until something sticks.

The problem is he's a legit blue (maybe close to purple) with 4 years BJJ and he's big and strong as shit with cardio to go a full round without gassing. I've rolled with 300+ lbs obese dudes and it's no problem because they can't just shut me down at every turn. The size and strength disparity is comparable to Big Nog vs. Bob Sapp but I'm nowhere near BB level. When this guy started training 4 years ago, I took his back and tapped him 3 times in the first roll and he had no idea what I was doing or how to stop it. But now that he's pretty good, it takes a massive skill advantage to even get position on him. I just want to troll him with a fluke sub out of nowhere for laughs.

Learn the buggy choke then.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Learn the buggy choke then.

Lol already tried to troll him with that but no dice. Even if I had the flexibility for it (not yet but working on it) he's twice as thick as a regular person. I need to think beyond the techniques of BJJ and hit this guy with a capoeira au batido from a handstand or some shit.

 

[shunyata]

Lol already tried to troll him with that but no dice. Even if I had the flexibility for it (not yet but working on it) he's twice as thick as a regular person. I need to think beyond the techniques of BJJ and hit this guy with a capoeira au batido from a handstand or some shit.

For real though check out that Firas vs Devon film that was posted recently and watch Firas move over and over again.

It's a lot of open guard, hunting the back, leg entries, and heel hooks that actually work when you're giving up 100 lbs.

 

[rmongler]

I'll try it next time I roll with him. I don't really play leg lasso or even know how to apply it properly (although looks kind of like spider guard to omoplata which I have drilled), but it can't be less successful than what I've been doing lol. I have a running joke with this dude that I'm going to keep trying random shit on him every time we roll until something sticks.

The problem is he's a legit blue (maybe close to purple) with 4 years BJJ and he's big and strong as shit with cardio to go a full round without gassing. I've rolled with 300+ lbs obese dudes and it's no problem because they can't just shut me down at every turn. The size and strength disparity is comparable to Big Nog vs. Bob Sapp but I'm nowhere near BB level. When this guy started training 4 years ago, I took his back and tapped him 3 times in the first roll and he had no idea what I was doing or how to stop it. But now that he's pretty good, it takes a massive skill advantage to even get position on him. I just want to troll him with a fluke sub out of nowhere for laughs.

Generally speaking, you want to get underneath the opponent's base when attacking from bottom; and when they have significantly greater mass, that is even more important, not less.

So things like 1lx to ankle pick standups, 50/50 leg locks, roll unders from sit-up guard or deep half to crab rides/back angle singles, and so on.

 

[ChickenBrother]

For real though check out that Firas vs Devon film that was posted recently and watch Firas move over and over again.

It's a lot of open guard, hunting the back, leg entries, and heel hooks that actually work when you're giving up 100 lbs.

For sure. I really like the heel hook entry Firas catches Larratt with twice and a heel hook is probably the only sub I'd ever catch this dude in.

Generally speaking, you want to get underneath the opponent's base when attacking from bottom; and when they have significantly greater mass, that is even more important, not less.

So things like 1lx to ankle pick standups, 50/50 leg locks, roll unders from sit-up guard or deep half to crab rides/back angle singles, and so on.

I do like X-guard and SLX into straight ankle locks or heel hooks and I need to get better at chaining into them from knee shield or butterfly which I usually start with. An imanari roll is probably the correct troll factor I'm going for but that's not yet in the cards for me.

 

[rmongler]

For sure. I really like the heel hook entry Firas catches Larratt with twice and a heel hook is probably the only sub I'd ever catch this dude in.



I do like X-guard and SLX into straight ankle locks or heel hooks and I need to get better at chaining into them from knee shield or butterfly which I usually start with. An imanari roll is probably the correct troll factor I'm going for but that's not yet in the cards for me.

Going from knee shield to attacking the far leg is something Craig Jones is known for. You can also look up Lucas Lepri, who sets up 1lx from de la riva, using the thigh shield to safely underhook their leg, and using the underhook on their leg to safely rewind his leg. Or Luiz Panza, who sets it up from closed guard.

All various means of attacking the underhook funk roll to enter leg entanglements.

 

[mattemate]

Going from knee shield to attacking the far leg is something Craig Jones is known for. You can also look up Lucas Lepri, who sets up 1lx from de la riva, using the thigh shield to safely underhook their leg, and using the underhook on their leg to safely rewind his leg. Or Luiz Panza, who sets it up from closed guard.

All various means of attacking the underhook funk roll to enter leg entanglements.

I really like how @lach uses de la riva to get to the legs. I already have pretty good DLR stuff and a decent berimbolo game, I'm out with an injury but plan to start using it to attack the legs and maybe take the back from the legs, or just stay on them. I mostly train in the gi so can't really heel hook, but all the transitions are dope.