Law Here we go again, again: The Andrew Brown shooting thread

[maximus__]

"he had his hands on the wheel, so it wasn't like he was reaching for a gun, only trying to run people over"

I watch 5 different versions of news now just to confirm all these alleged stories. The framing of how they refer to things is very important. vehicle borne attack is just as serious as a active armed shooter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack
Tell me all these people jumping back into cars aren't potentially going to kill people after reading the above. Add to the US were that person may have easier access to a concealed gun within that car. I still haven't watched any body worn so I will wait to comment further. My comments are completely in relation to how they word these news stories.

The recent shooting of the 16 year old is perfect, first she was just a 16 year old shot in the back. Then she was shown to be mid stab with a knife and the news edits that image out. Then the neighbours camera shows her yelling she was going to stab and kill the other person and that she attacked multiple people. Now the news shows Police in the UK disarming offenders with knifes because they aren't armed, but neglect to mention the lone wolf terrorist attacks were people run through the street killing multiple people including the police and they can't stop it until a specialist armed squad turns up.

The only common denominator in all these recent police incidents is that the offender attempted to flee from Police and was or made actions to place themselves in the position to justify an escalation of force, by being armed or potentially appearing to be armed by their overt actions.

 

[nhbbear]

They do, but have you noticed that police will now cease high speed car chases because they actually pose a higher risk to the public than letting the suspect go and trying to get him later (a lot of times it's by using road spikes on likely routes, etc.).

If the cops let this dude go, he likely hauls ass for a block or two but when he realizes they aren't chasing him, he's gonna slow down and try not to get noticed by any other LE that might be in the area. The flipside was that they not only killed this guy by shooting him in the back, but they endangered the public because errant rounds flew all over (including through someone's wall and clock in their living room--so thank God nobody there got hit).

You have to weigh all factors. In this case, unloading gunfire at a fleeing suspect was seemingly the absolute wrong choice.

yeah, I knew a cop that pursued someone that wrecked and killed a driver.

 

[maximus__]

Stop and frisk harassed millions of Black people. 2nd class citizenship will not be tolerated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_Hill_Occupied_Protest

The interesting thing is with CHOP/CHAZ which was primarily a BLM initiative they created a militant armed police force, erected barriers, required identification to move throughout and instituted stop and frisk searches within the first week. They assaulted people in the streets for filming them, multiple murders including shootings and destroyed their own community and extorted the local businesses.

So basically within days of creating a anti fascist government system, they became more totalitarian and fascist than the current government and effectively created a class system and immediately oppressed the lower class.

I don't agree with targeted approaches towards people of any racial background, but I just find it so interesting that when given a chance to put a new system in place BLM goes even further to the extreme of what the Police and governemtn are alleged to be doing.

 

[cottagecheesefan]

I watch 5 different versions of news now just to confirm all these alleged stories. The framing of how they refer to things is very important. vehicle borne attack is just as serious as a active armed shooter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_2017_Melbourne_car_attack
Tell me all these people jumping back into cars aren't potentially going to kill people after reading the above. Add to the US were that person may have easier access to a concealed gun within that car. I still haven't watched any body worn so I will wait to comment further. My comments are completely in relation to how they word these news stories.

The only common denominator in all these recent police incidents is that the offender attempted to flee from Police and was or made actions to place themselves in the position to justify an escalation of force, by being armed or potentially appearing to be armed by their overt actions.

Completely agree. Even the one where the female cop thought she had a taser, the guy was fleeing and could have potentially used his car. Her fault is that she said taser a bunch, rather than warning she was going to shoot. But dude was wrestling with cop, while in car and could have sped off right then with cop half way in car. Also has a passanger with him. third cop was on other side of car, could also be hit.

They are just cluster fucks.

 

[jrams]

How would a fair trial be denied by release of the video? The jury still gets to see the video.

Can interfere with witness statements.

I still think it's a bad decision not to release it though.

 

[EL CORINTHIAN]

If we don't, as a society, remedy the vast wealth, education and opportunity disparities between whites and racial minorities, then this never ends.

When you say "between whites and racial minorities" what you really mean is "everyone else and black people" right?

As far as I'm concerned Korean Americans or even Iranian Americans don't have some obscene disparity between themselves and white people. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like most racial minorities do just fine.

 

[mkess101]

yeah, I knew a cop that pursued someone that wrecked and killed a driver.

I believe it. I've said it here before, but there's a group of teens and early 20's stealing cars all over the midwest. They don't sell them to chop shops, they just drive them around until they get caught or they ditch them for something else. They don't know how to drive very well even at reasonable speeds. They don't care about anyone else's safety (or their own really) and they damn sure don't care if they damage the cars. When cops pursue them, these kids will drive 100 through residential areas. They just don't give a F. Cops have decided (rightfully I guess) to just let them go when they start flooring it. They'll get spike strips set up on routes that seem likely and that sometimes works. Otherwise, the kids get away. Which sucks, but it's better than people dying.

 

[maximus__]

Completely agree. Even the one where the female cop thought she had a taser, the guy was fleeing and could have potentially used his car. Her fault is that she said taser a bunch, rather than warning she was going to shoot. But dude was wrestling with cop, while in car and could have sped off right then with cop half way in car. Also has a passanger with him. third cop was on other side of car, could also be hit.

They are just cluster fucks.

Yeah that shooting is really unfortunate because it was clearly a mistake, but potentially justified based off the knowledge they were aware he was possibly in possession of another firearm and was showing he was committed to getting away.

She lazered her offsider multiple times, the passenger and then used the wrong tactical option. She deserves to lose her job and face some sort of criminal charges. She is a bad cop and shows that instead of defunding the Police you should be raising the standards, pay and training them more. They talk about her being a veteran of the job, but my guess is she has been off the road for a while, was back filling a spot with all the cops leaving and hadn't been actively working for a while. The second she became involved the guy has attempted to escape, prior to that the other cops had the situation calm and under control.

Imagine if normal Police got regular training like elite military units. On shift hours to go to the gym, martial arts training through work to say BJJ blue belt and basic wrestling/boxing training on shift. Add to that regular shooting, scenario training were they get to use a variety of options against role players. That should be a weekly/monthly occurrence. Instead it happens once to 2x a year, they work overtime endlessly just to make ends meet and extra shifts to cover shortfalls. This incident may be their 10th arrest of the day and they may have had someone resist at each one in a similar manner. Now you get this last one where someone again jumps into a car, is potentially armed and your last job involved you nearly getting stabbed. We get this crap happening.

How about we put the onus back on the offenders to act like decent people and not resist arrest, stab or shoot people incl;uding Police?

 

[DizzyKronic]

235 Black people were murdered by police in 2019. Police brutality, police harassing is broader than death by shooting. It’s people military personal getting tasered because they wanted to pull over somewhere with witness and lighting, it’s when cops order someone to get their ID from their wallet then shoot them because they followed instructions. It’s choking people to death, shooting people with their hands up, pulling people over just because their Black, etc.

This will not continue into the next century. This caste system dies now.

That military personnel you’re referring to was a moron if he really drove a mile and a half before pulling over. You can’t see how they usually make the situation harder on themselves?

 

[woodguyatl]

So you don't care about justice and a fair trial, back to the "good old days" of the lynch mob.

Used your head for once and think about it.

How does releasing actual video make a trial not fair? There is no chance the prosecution would not be allowed to present the video as evidence. Makes no difference if the jurors have already seen it.

 

[maximus__]

This is not only a natural result of cutting social services and education in favor of police budgets, though. This goes deeper and more historical.

We are a capitalist country. When the civil rights act passed in 1964, for every $1.00 of wealth a white person had, a black person had $.05. This was less than 2 generations ago. There are people still alive today who remember being second class citizens in this country.

If two groups FINALLY get a similar legal starting line with this much disparity, it is in effect nowhere near a similar starting line in practice. Schools and social services are funded by local taxes, which gave black people in 1965 1/20th (in reality much worse) the probability for a chance at successful education.

If we don't, as a society, remedy the vast wealth, education and opportunity disparities between whites and racial minorities, then this never ends.

Trying to solve systemic problems with individual anecdotes is being purposefully ignorant of statistics and the necessity of general probabilities when crafting public policy.

When do we put that back on the communities though? Money has been poured into these communities and it achieves the opposite of what you are saying. Billions of dollars have been poured into schools and welfare programs and it creates more poverty as there is no reason to make changes if you are going to get bailed out anyway.

What you actually need to do is lower crime in these areas, to attract business and wealthy investors to improve the value of these areas. You then create jobs and the line slowly moves up until everyone gets to a similar point.

I live in Australia which has tried to do the same thing here but with different communities. You have multi generational welfare recipients who never move up out of that poverty area because why bother, where as multiple communities that immigrated here including refugees have been able to accumulate wealth after starting with only the clothes on their back and no handouts.

I grew up on welfare and my parents moved to a cheaper state to afford a house and then I went from there, joined the military and I now am middle class after building up wealth and leaving. The area they live in is now highly sort after because many people have done what they did and built up wealth.

Granted I acknowledge I started from higher than some of these people but you see plenty of people who are able to do it when they have some personal drive. Plenty of people I grew up with are dead, drug addicts or continuing the welfare cycle.

How about we put the onus back on all these multi million dollar athletes and hollywood types who are the top 1% of the country to actually help these people instead of creating hate. Lebron James is a perfect example. He lives a highly privileged life and talks about a system that suppresses Americans whilst having been given the opportunity under that system to become an elite member of society. How about he educates people on what he did to get where he is instead of tweeting threats to police saving another girls life. That Police officer didn't see colour when he had 9 seconds to decide, he saw someone in danger and acted accordingly. None of the other adults in the video were willing to step up and stop the situation.

 

[oldshadow]

How would a fair trial be denied by release of the video? The jury still gets to see the video.

Maybe they see it or part of it or none of it. The judge would make the decision. Releasing evidence to the public before a trial makes setting a jury hard.

Say it shows something that might hurt the defense that was not admissible or that does the same with the prosecution.

This why.

 

[maximus__]

Maybe they see it or part of it or none of it. The judge would make the decision. Releasing evidence to the public before a trial makes setting a jury hard.

Say it shows something that might hurt the defense that was not admissible or that does the same with the prosecution.

This why.

The footage in the Chauvin trial didn't make a difference to be honest. People decided what they saw off a mobile phone clip months before and when you actually watch the full footage the entire incident it's completely different. There were so many unfortunate circumstances that led to Floyd's death between his own actions, the crowd, EMT response, and Chauvin using the approved but poorly implemented neck/shoulder restraint at times it's really unfortunate how it all played out. All they had to do was put him in the recovery position when he went out and it would have been fine. Hard to do when someone is threatening to assault you and you have two week 1 trainess with you.The full BWC at the time could have prevented some of the rioting and uproar by normal everyday folks if they cared to watch it. By the time it was available the narrative had been set. You also don't want the BWC to be released after every single incident to justify all police interactions.

 

[oldshadow]

How does releasing actual video make a trial not fair? There is no chance the prosecution would not be allowed to present the video as evidence. Makes no difference if the jurors have already seen it.

Like I just posted we don't know what would be admitted.

Let's just say the video shows the guy before getting in the car doing something the judges say is not relevant and hurts the prosecution case so they don't allow it or it could be the other way around.

From what I understand it's about getting a fair trial.

 

[oldshadow]

The footage in the Chauvin trial didn't make a difference to be honest. People decided what they saw off a mobile phone clip months before and when you actually watch the full footage the entire incident it's completely different. There were so many unfortunate circumstances that led to Floyd's death between his own actions, the crowd, EMT response, and Chauvin using the approved but poorly implemented neck/shoulder restraint at times it's really unfortunate how it all played out. All they had to do was put him in the recovery position when he went out and it would have been fine. Hard to do when someone is threatening to assault you and you have two week 1 trainess with you.The full BWC at the time could have prevented some of the rioting and uproar by normal everyday folks if they cared to watch it. By the time it was available the narrative had been set. You also don't want the BWC to be released after every single incident to justify all police interactions.

Yes but it doesn't need to be released untill at or after the trial. Then what was released and the entire video can and shpils.be released. Just like all the evidence in any trial.

That is unless you want to go to mob "justice "

 

[LazaRRus]

So did I hear right that we won’t be getting video of this? That’s not right

I heard that the judge said not until the investigation is complete

 

[nhbbear]

Yeah that shooting is really unfortunate because it was clearly a mistake, but potentially justified based off the knowledge they were aware he was possibly in possession of another firearm and was showing he was committed to getting away.

She lazered her offsider multiple times, the passenger and then used the wrong tactical option. She deserves to lose her job and face some sort of criminal charges. She is a bad cop and shows that instead of defunding the Police you should be raising the standards, pay and training them more. They talk about her being a veteran of the job, but my guess is she has been off the road for a while, was back filling a spot with all the cops leaving and hadn't been actively working for a while. The second she became involved the guy has attempted to escape, prior to that the other cops had the situation calm and under control.

Imagine if normal Police got regular training like elite military units. On shift hours to go to the gym, martial arts training through work to say BJJ blue belt and basic wrestling/boxing training on shift. Add to that regular shooting, scenario training were they get to use a variety of options against role players. That should be a weekly/monthly occurrence. Instead it happens once to 2x a year, they work overtime endlessly just to make ends meet and extra shifts to cover shortfalls. This incident may be their 10th arrest of the day and they may have had someone resist at each one in a similar manner. Now you get this last one where someone again jumps into a car, is potentially armed and your last job involved you nearly getting stabbed. We get this crap happening.

How about we put the onus back on the offenders to act like decent people and not resist arrest, stab or shoot people incl;uding Police?

Training should be prioritized. I used to beg to do more defensive tactics training-I was an instructor for twelve years. It wasn’t a priority for my department nor is it for others. The problem comes with budgets and covering the shifts while the officers are at training. With police shortages nationwide, this is a serious issue. Police need more training, not less. But some idiots want to slash budgets and overtime and training are always the first to go.

 

[maximus__]

Training should be prioritized. I used to beg to do more defensive tactics training-I was an instructor for twelve years. It wasn’t a priority for my department nor is it for others. The problem comes with budgets and covering the shifts while the officers are at training. With police shortages nationwide, this is a serious issue. Police need more training, not less. But some idiots want to slash budgets and overtime and training are always the first to go.

I work in Australia, where firearm access is less of an issue. They are still out there especially in my area. Instead we have knives and syringes to deal with regularly. It also means we are less equipped to deal with offenders when they are armed with firearms.

I do all my training in my own time with the occasional bi annual training package rolled out that never gets redone.

The system of social workers and mental health practitioners we use here is what the US wants to adopt. All it leads to is those social workers and mental health practitioners calling Police and now you have 4-6 people getting paid to do the job you used to just send some Police for. We have an issue currently with no ambulances being available due to the hospitals not coping post covid lockdowns. We had no issues during covid, but now all the elective surgeries, mental health problems and medical complications they locked down to avoid over running the hospitals for has happened on the the other side. We are having to transport stabbing victims and mentally unwell people in the back of police cars to hospital for treatment and it's another bad situation waiting to happen.

 

[DespicablePeep]

Why American cops are this dumb and violent? What pisses me off is people making this a race thing, than going around destroying cities in protest. But what kind of dumb cop goes around shooting people fleeing with the current atmosphere? Can´t they wait a bit until things are more chill to kill people running away unarmed?

 

[rocketskates]

Sounds like according to the DA he tried to ram the cops and physically struck some of them.