Help With these butterfly guard situations

[outlawimmortal]

situation 1
ok, say you have butterfly guard, your opponent puts both your feet between his legs, and squeezes his legs together, negating your hooks, while also keeping low on your hips. what do you do? is there a technique used to bail out? or something else to do from here?

situation 2
what do you do it the above situation happens, but then they start to pass by bringing one of their arms under your legs and grabbing the opposite foot? is there something you can do from here? or do you have to keep this from happening?

these two things happen to me constantly right now, and im sick of it occurring, because it seems like it take s away my ability to attack.

any help would be greatly apprecated.

 

[onepointeighty]

if im picturing what your saying correctly id be playing feet on the hips from this situation, or at least work for feet on hips.

when they get a sort of hug on my legs i work towards feet on the hips, they cant really pass if youv got good pressure on their hips

 

[Calibur]

911

Put both your hands on one ear and drive his head into the floor. At the same time shrimp to the other side. Don't stop until his forehead is touching the mat.

If the shrimp fails (which it shouldnt) than you can cork screw out. Jump backwards while spinning. The spin should create enough space to move your feet and reset your hips. It uses a lot of energy and is more of a scramble than anything else.

 

[Zankou]

situation 1
ok, say you have butterfly guard, your opponent puts both your feet between his legs, and squeezes his legs together, negating your hooks, while also keeping low on your hips. what do you do? is there a technique used to bail out? or something else to do from here?

situation 2
what do you do it the above situation happens, but then they start to pass by bringing one of their arms under your legs and grabbing the opposite foot? is there something you can do from here? or do you have to keep this from happening?

these two things happen to me constantly right now, and im sick of it occurring, because it seems like it take s away my ability to attack.

any help would be greatly apprecated.

Situation 1: There should never be a situation where your opponent "puts both your feet between his legs." Your legs should be behind your hands, which are fighting for a clinch. Or, if you are on one hip, then one of your legs should be folded under your butt, where he can't grab it. If he's squeezing your feet together, you need to rewind. And if both your feet are between his legs, well, you better already have secured a dominant clinch before that happened (double unders, arm drag) or good luck.

Situation 2: Again, you've already failed -- big-time -- if this situation arises. You need to grab his pants, try to kick him back and secure an underhook. Once you have an underhook, you can kick him back and get your hips back under you. But that's a fix for something that shouldn't happen in the first place. Don't let him flatten you out and pin you.

Both of these situations result from violating the first law of butterfly guard, which is "handfighting before hooks." The opposite of closed guard, where it's fine to have your legs engaged before your hands take grips.

 

[outlawimmortal]

hmm, i did not know that law, i think that is a a law i have been violating a lot. are there any other laws?

here are another few questions(im full of them)

when it comes to gripping, is there like a hierarchy? i mean, would head control be more important than wrist? or vice versa?

also, when i am fighting for grips, is it important to try to always keep my hands battling his hands until i attack(keeps my hands fighting with his all the time)?it always seems like if they have any hands free, im screwed and they already have a good chance at passing.

thanks guys i really appreciate the help. and i can deffinitely use the info.

 

[Zankou]

There is indeed a hierarchy, and every butterfly guard player should know it!

1. Armdrag.
2. Double underhooks.
3. Double overhooks.
4. One underhook.
5. One overhook.
6. Back of head control.

You can sweep with any of these grips, but the first is the most dominating -- almost a sure sweep -- while the last examples require a lot more technique and timing. Some players get better with one type of control than another, but this hierarchy is probably the most accurate for most people, IMHO.

I do not shoot both hooks in unless I have one of the first three controls. Because if you shoot both hooks in, you will end up on your back, which requires a dominating clinch to sweep from. The last three grips, I only sweep to the side, with my other hook kept back.

 

[outlawimmortal]

is there anything else a butterfly guard player should know Zankou?

more rules?

basic advice?

like i have said in another post. my school isnt big on butterfly guard, and i have been learning from marcelo's book, but that is mostly technique not strategy, or basic knowledge

 

[Zankou]

Marcelo's book is great, and explains most of this stuff pretty well. You may need to re-read his explanations!

Marcelo always goes for the double underhooks or the armdrag while keeping his hooks back. That's his game -- he just sits there on his butt fighting for double unders or an armdrag.

I prefer the armdrag or single underhook, since I find it too hard to get double unders on a routine basis. That's just me tho. Also, with a gi on, one underhook is plenty strong to sweep even huge opponents.

 

[outlawimmortal]

thanks man, i really appreciate you and calibur's help. and not just with this thread on the butterfly guard. it is really helping me improve my game.

 

[Calibur]

There is indeed a hierarchy, and every butterfly guard player should know it!

1. Armdrag.
2. Double underhooks.
3. Double overhooks.
4. One underhook.
5. One overhook.
6. Back of head control.

You can sweep with any of these grips, but the first is the most dominating -- almost a sure sweep -- while the last examples require a lot more technique and timing. Some players get better with one type of control than another, but this hierarchy is probably the most accurate for most people, IMHO.

I do not shoot both hooks in unless I have one of the first three controls. Because if you shoot both hooks in, you will end up on your back, which requires a dominating clinch to sweep from. The last three grips, I only sweep to the side, with my other hook kept back.

The double underhooks are pretty much useless to me, and I have no idea what you would do with double overhooks.

Enlighten us.

 

[wellwell]

@Zankou what do you mean about the single underhook with the gi on? The only difference as far as I can tell is there is a bit more friction from the gi. Or you grabbing the belt for this one? I normally go for opposite lat even with gi.

As for another option from butterfly guard. This is a move to put on somebody where
1) opponent sits back while on their knees
2) opponent isn't trying to put pressure on you
3) you have one or both underhooks

Just fold one of your hooks under your bum keeping the foot of the underhook side (assuming you only have one underhook) between their knees. Then tackle them using your underhook and the power of your back leg. This is the rocking motion Marcelo uses when his opponent locks his legs when he tries to sweep him. The difference is Marcelo uses the momentum to come to both feet whereis in this situation you have to create the power with your back foot.

EDIT: This is a basic standup wrestling technique but I don't know whats it proper name is and it seems its called different things but bodylock/bearhug should sum it up. Most people don't think to do it from butterfly guard bottom but it works very well as your lower elevation gives you an easier time of getting the underhooks.

The defence to this is for them to post their free arm which will get you both underhooks if you didn't have them already and if not you have the top position. If they post close to you you can just squeeze that arm in too.

 

[FLMikeATT]

There is indeed a hierarchy, and every butterfly guard player should know it!

1. Armdrag.
2. Double underhooks.
3. Double overhooks.
4. One underhook.
5. One overhook.
6. Back of head control.

You can sweep with any of these grips, but the first is the most dominating -- almost a sure sweep -- while the last examples require a lot more technique and timing. Some players get better with one type of control than another, but this hierarchy is probably the most accurate for most people, IMHO.

I do not shoot both hooks in unless I have one of the first three controls. Because if you shoot both hooks in, you will end up on your back, which requires a dominating clinch to sweep from. The last three grips, I only sweep to the side, with my other hook kept back.

You forgot to mention the over/under grip which is my most high percentage sweep grip from the butterfly guard. When I have the grip I'll get on the hip in the direction I'm sweeping (which is the overhook side so they can't use it to post).

For example, I'll have an overhook with my left arm and an underhook with my right. I'll be sitting on my left hip, and when it's time to sweep, I use the power of my grip and my right leg to throw him up and over.

And then of course there is the 'over the back belt grip' in combination with wrist/tricep control with your free hand, which I've also been somewhat successful with.

I've also been trying to work a cross collar + knee grip for more of a knee/ankle pick, leg lock, cross choke, collar drag, telephone armbar game, but I haven't been too successful with it yet.

Jesus there's so many different butterfly grips and variations, especially when you combine it with x guard and traditional open guard. I fucking love it.

 

[Zankou]

The single underhook with the gi on often ends up being turned into an over/under clinch, simply by overhooking the other arm. But all you need is that one underhook, you don't necessarily need an overhook on the other arm to get started sweeping. You CAN go into an over/under clinch to hook sweep, a very high percentage move. But you can also just tackle the guy with a knee tap, or an ankle pick. Or you can throw him forward with the underhook to take the back. Or (my usual favorite) you can wait for him to grab your pant, trap his wrist, kick your leg under, and hook sweep a la Robson Moura. Not an overhook, just a wrist trap, driving his wrist under him. The sweep is huge. Or you can wait for him to take an overhook counter to your underhook, trap it, sweep, ... etc. etc.

The reason I like it the single underhook better with the gi is that it is just a moderately strong clinch, and when you go nogi, a moderate clinch often isn't enough to get the sweep. With the gi, you have so much more control over his free arm and leg that a single underhook is more than enough to set up a great sweep series. Nogi, you usually want a stronger clinch.

As far as what you can do with double unders, there's too much for me to list. Go check out Marcelo's book for good examples.

One thing is for sure -- if you want to play butterfly guard, you'll soon realize that winning butterfly guard is the art of securing the clinch by technical handfighting, not of using the hooks.

 

[mesa]

If i don't have double unders i bail. SUPER SHRIMP out and start over from open guard.

Obviously i need to work on my butterfly, but I feel like double unders are the most effective for me. Per Zankou's post about Marcelo. CHeck out his videos.