Helio Demonstrates How to Get a Fight to the Ground

NinjaKilla187

NinjaKilla187

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No jumping/pulling guard or buttscooting involved. I'm just sayin...

watch


In case the imbed doesn't work:

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=k1RurfbNu6g
 
What exactly are you just saying? I'm not sure what the point of this thread is.
 
Not really sure what you are trying to say, but i did enjoy the movie.
 
Sport jiujitsu didn't exist back then. Carlos Gracie was taught Kano-ryu jujitsu (aka judo) by Maeda. What's the point of this again? Cool video, but it's been posted several times before.
 
Wow that film is cool. The selfdefense stuff the gracies teach really appeals to me.

p.s. the little guy throwing and armbarring the bigger guy for his chick was just hilarious!!
 
Yojimbo. said:
Sport jiujitsu didn't exist back then. Carlos Gracie was taught Kano-ryu jujitsu (aka judo) by Maeda. What's the point of this again? Cool video, but it's been posted several times before.
Click to expand...

Sure it did, it was called Judo.

Actually, from 1914 until 1925 the Kosen style of Judo, which went on to become BJJ via Count Maeda training Helio Gracie, was popular and dominated in competitions. Kano didn't favor it and changed the Judo rules to limit time on the ground.

I suppose I am just nostalgic for a time when Nage-Waza and Newaza got more equal treatment in both competition and training. But I am obviously in the minority.
 
NinjaKilla187 said:
Sure it did, it was called Judo.

Actually, from 1914 until 1925 the Kosen style of Judo, which went on to become BJJ via Count Maeda training Helio Gracie, was popular and dominated in competitions. Kano didn't favor it and changed the Judo rules to limit time on the ground.

I suppose I am just nostalgic for a time when Nage-Waza and Newaza got more equal treatment in both competition and training. But I am obviously in the minority.
Click to expand...
I really don't think the judo guard of the early 20th century was anywhere near as developed and specialized as it is in BJJ today. That would explain why nobody was very big on jumping to guard, regardless of whether or not there were time limits on the ground.
 
And why do you think you are in the minority for appreciating nagewaza? You've already been told in another thread that most BJJers would like to have a good standing game. The students aren't in control of what the instructor makes them focus on.
 
Kosen judo has nothing to do with BJJ. Maeda was a second-generation Kodokan judoka. Kosen came about after he left Japan.
 
Yojimbo. said:
And why do you think you are in the minority for appreciating nagewaza? You've already been told in another thread that most BJJers would like to have a good standing game. The students aren't in control of what the instructor makes them focus on.
Click to expand...

On this forum most people seem to excuse the lack of takedown and throwing training in BJJ and in competition. I don't see many people lobbying for more standing work in BJJ competition although some seemed interested in more groundwork for Judo competition. I haven't done a poll but a general reading of posts on Sherdog gives this impression.
 
NinjaKilla187 said:
On this forum most people seem to excuse the lack of takedown and throwing training in BJJ and in competition. I don't see many people lobbying for more standing work in BJJ competition although some seemed interested in more groundwork for Judo competition. I haven't done a poll but a general reading of posts on Sherdog gives this impression.
Click to expand...

That's because you're blind to your own prejudices. It is hard to get people to actually see the benifits of a guard game around here. Many people advocate learning takedowns. I advocate cross-training to everyone I talk to, and I'm a judo brown belt too. When I run practices - gi or nogi - I try to have a good balance between takedowns and groundwork. However, I don't go around insinuating that guard players are cowards or that it is a less effective strategy. According to you're profile, you only do judo. Your's is a common attitude among judoka who haven't trained extensively in jiu-jitsu. And it is a bad attitude; because, it is not only 1 dimentional but also condensending to anyone with a different skill set.
 
NinjaKilla187 said:
Sure it did, it was called Judo.

Actually, from 1914 until 1925 the Kosen style of Judo, which went on to become BJJ via Count Maeda training Helio Gracie, was popular and dominated in competitions. Kano didn't favor it and changed the Judo rules to limit time on the ground.

I suppose I am just nostalgic for a time when Nage-Waza and Newaza got more equal treatment in both competition and training. But I am obviously in the minority.
Click to expand...

Maeda left Japan and travelled around the world quite a while before that. Kosen has little to nothing to do with the development of jiu-jitsu.
 
Frodo said:
Kosen judo has nothing to do with BJJ. Maeda was a second-generation Kodokan judoka. Kosen came about after he left Japan.
Click to expand...

I use the term Kosen very loosely. Prior to 1925 the Kodokan had a substantial component of students that focussed on newaza and these guys didn't have a special name for what they did. In 1914 competition in this style of Judo was formalized at Kyoto University and became called Kosen. This style of training and competition undoubtedly existed prior to that and I have no idea what it was called if even it had a separate name.

There were many pre-Judo Ju Jutsu schools that had a substantial ground fighting component, Fusen Ryu for example. You can make an argument that prior to 1925 all Judo was more newaza-centric due to the rule systems in place at the time.

When I say Kosen Judo I mean Judo that does not allow winning by pinning and thereby allows techniques from rolling around on ones back (Hikikomi). This may not be the right terminology but I don't know of a term in common use that otherwise captures the essence of it besides Kosen. Unfortunately the Kosen style competitions ended in 1940 and a lot of this stuff was lost in the post war period so the genuine history is hard to come by. We are all fortunate that BJJ retained alot of this grappling knowledge, wherever it came from.

I do not believe that (whatever you want to call the pre '25 groundfigthing JJJ/Judo styles) are the same as BJJ. Vast improvements were likely made in positional grappling. But at least some of the guard techniques and most, if not all, submissions probably came from some school of JJJ/Judo.

There's no doubt BJJ was strongly influenced by the pre 1925 version of Judo, as taught to Helio by Count Maeda.

How's "pre-1925" Judo for a better term?
 
Rules of kosen judo :

match 25 + minutes

Ippon from Throw , pin , choke , armlock

no stand up, hikkomi allowed (pull to ground) , no Wazari/Yuko/koka

-----------------------

Maeda, as Ito, Ono and the other judoka that travelled, teached and fought were Kodokan.

The greatest innovation in term of newaza came later, with Kansai School of Judo, a group of teacher that developed the newaza and teached in the school (kosen).

The Most importan master in term of newaza was Sensei ODA. Untill his death he was the personification of Newaza for judo , and all the official Kodokan book about newaza were written by him.

Oda was the developer of Sankaku jime(triangle choke) in all his variation

Sankaku and other moves developed later than the years of maeda at kodokan, come to brazil later with other judoka (like Mehdi, Kimura, Ono , Osvaldo Alves, student under Okano, and others).

Here 3 video of ODA showin Newaza

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Tsunetane+oda+judo&search_type=
 
For the second time, Maeda taught Carlos, not Helio.

http://www.judoinfo.com/helio.htm
Nishi Yoshinori: I would like to ask you something technical before the story about Kimura. What kind of style of jiu-jitsu was it you learned?

Helio: I remember vaguely that my brother Carlos was learning it from Konde Koma (Kosei Maeda) around 1914. Anyway I was just four years old at that time. To tell the truth, I don't remember well the technique directly taught by Koma. Carlos opened the dojo in Rio when he was 25 years old, and I was watching the techniques that he had learned from Konde Koma. But I kept thinking about what a small and weak man like me should do to win, and developing the theory to control an opponent by technique.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitsuyo_Maeda#Brazil
—14 year old son of Gast
 
Frodo said:
That's because you're blind to your own prejudices. It is hard to get people to actually see the benifits of a guard game around here. Many people advocate learning takedowns. I advocate cross-training to everyone I talk to, and I'm a judo brown belt too. When I run practices - gi or nogi - I try to have a good balance between takedowns and groundwork. However, I don't go around insinuating that guard players are cowards or that it is a less effective strategy. According to you're profile, you only do judo. Your's is a common attitude among judoka who haven't trained extensively in jiu-jitsu. And it is a bad attitude; because, it is not only 1 dimentional but also condensending to anyone with a different skill set.
Click to expand...

Profiles can be misleading. I train ground game more often than Judo these days although it's fair to say I haven't trained "extensively" in it. I don't put "BJJ" in my profile because most of the guys I roll with are really CSW guys although two guys at my school are GJJ purples. I also list Shotokan first out of respect for my first Sensei even though I haven't done it in over 20 years.

The older I get the more injury prevention it becomes necessary for me to practice and newaza is one safer way to stay in the game. I don't mean to denigrate the guard game. I had a really shitty day last week and made a sarcastic "dry humping" comment, which I can see you would interpret that way. I apologize. And I don't recall ever attributing cowardice to guard players.

I think we are 90% in agreement that grappling training and competition is at its best when it is "full spectrum" and balanced between stand-up and groundwork.
 
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