Height was not the main issue in the JJ/DC fight

[NoBiasJustMMA]

This!
Just as the topic states, the main issue for DC wasn't Jones height but his skill.
Jones is able to use the advantages of his size better than any other fighter in the ufc I know AND he has managed to find ways to minimize the disadvantages he has due to his frame. (his "close-distance-elbows" etc.)

This is why Jones is such a good fighter.
If you compare him to Struve you have a fighter who is basically a Jones for Heavyweight frame wise.
So, if all it took was a sizeable height and reach advantage over your opponents to dominate a division Struve should definently be a force to be reckoned with at Heavyweight.
But because Struve doesn't use his advantages as well as Jones does this is not the case.

No, it's both. If Jones were closer in height and reach to DC, he likely would have had more success in the clinch and with takedowns.

 

[Phisher]

You say it's nonsense in your second sentence then in the next paragraph you go on to basically say that yes it is indeed a factor. You can't say both, it's either not a factor in his ability to succeed as a fighter or it is.

I do agree that generally when someone has a frame like Jones they tend not to be good at using it but if he didn't have that physique he wouldn't be able to do some of the things he does so it's obviously a factor.

No one is saying Jones is only successful because he's tall and has a long reach but that certainly helps.

Plenty of people have been saying that for years, and it's implicitly stated by constantly bringing up the fact that he's tall and has a reach. You don't see constant comments about how X fighter wouldn't have fared nearly as well if it weren't for his reflexes or concussive KO or any other innate, untrainable physical advantage that they possess.

 

[albinoking]

DC has fought people Jones' height at HW, right?

Yes sir

Big Foot 6'4
Mir 6'3
Barnett 6'3

all are elite heavy weight. It's the speed most people forgot to mention.

 

[Doodles]

It's not the only type of physical advantage people harp on. People talk about guys that have physical advantages like Lawler, Lombard and Romero all the time or Cain's freakish cardio.

I agree but they don't get criticised for it. How many times have you heard people hate on Cain because he has a natural cardio advantage? People use the word "unfair" when talking about Bones's build.

 

[Phisher]

jones reach and height are part of why hes winning fights, that height and reach already put him ahead of most in the pack its undeniable, watch jones fights where his striking was absolutely awful and he was training with a shit camp he was destroying other guys with the same skill level he had at the time, but jones work ethic and wanting to sharpen the tools he already had is what makes him so far ahead of the pack

He was dominating guys in his career before he went to Jackson's because of this wrestling acumen. That's a function of particular skillset that he possessed to exploit his frame (which is wrong for wrestling) and the fact that he quickly adapted to the MMA ruleset not the fact that he has long limbs. Most unskilled guys with Jones' build get ragdolled by opponents with more compact builds.

 

[bambaladam]

The main issue was DC was outgameplanned. And the secondary issue was the flawless execution of the plan. Height factors into those things, not into the outcome per se.

 

[Phisher]

It's not the only type of physical advantage people harp on. People talk about guys that have physical advantages like Lawler, Lombard and Romero all the time or Cain's freakish cardio. It's only when people talk about Jones' advantages that people get all defensive and then act like the person saying it's a factor thinks that's the only reason he's good.

Yes, it is, and it's where most of the criticism of Jones' in cage ability is rooted. Any claim to the contrary is either down to dishonesty or deliberate obtuseness.

Outside of Nick Diaz, nobody gave GSP shit for being an insane natural athlete. It was actually conventional wisdom for a large portion of the fanbase that he wasn't really athletic and was just a hard worker.

I've never once heard anybody claim that Cain had unfair cardio advantage or speculate about how good he would be if is his natural physical abilities were closer to those of his opponents.

 

[kdday]

He was dominating guys in his career before he went to Jackson's because of this wrestling acumen. That's a function of particular skillset that he possessed to exploit his frame (which is wrong for wrestling) and the fact that he quickly adapted to the MMA ruleset not the fact that he has long limbs. Most unskilled guys with Jones' build get ragdolled by opponents with more compact builds.

jones only ko was before he even made it to the ufc

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Plenty of people have been saying that for years, and it's implicitly stated by constantly bringing up the fact that he's tall and has a reach. You don't see constant comments about how X fighter wouldn't have fared nearly as well if it weren't for his reflexes or concussive KO or any other innate, untrainable physical advantage that they possess.

Those people are morons but let them say that's what their opinion is before you assume what their opinion is.

I think that's you just making an assumption.

So because Jones has advantages we can't discuss them. That's stupid. We talk about Cain's cardio all the time or how strong guys like Lawler, and Lombard are or how some guys have freakishly good chins, if we can discuss all those advantages then we can talk about a guy that's tall, has a very long reach and a level of coordination that normally doesn't come with that frame.

 

[Doodles]

He was dominating guys in his career before he went to Jackson's because of this wrestling acumen.

Exactly. There are plenty of short wrestlers that smash people early in their career with limited MMA training.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Yes, it is, and it's where most of the criticism of Jones' in cage ability is rooted. Any claim to the contrary is either down to dishonesty or deliberate obtuseness.

No it's not and I gave you multiple examples of other fighters or advantages people talk about but you just ignored that cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Phisher]

jones only ko was before he even made it to the ufc

Okay?

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

I agree but they don't get criticised for it. How many times have you heard people hate on Cain because he has a natural cardio advantage? People use the word "unfair" when talking about Bones's build.

Those people are irrational and shouldn't be taken seriously, they are probably trolls. But to act like people don't analyze fights/fighters on an MMA forum and talk about physical advantages/disadvantages is just bullshit.

 

[Phisher]

No it's not and I gave you multiple examples of other fighters or advantages people talk about but you just ignored that cause it doesn't fit your narrative.

You didn't provide any examples. You just pulled a bunch of nonsense out of your ass.

Why don't you link to a couple of threads that people have started to complain about Robbie Lawler unfairly punching people too hard, or Cain having too much cardio?

I can find dozens of examples of people complaining about Jones' size without even trying:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/search.php?searchid=29572729

 

[Doodles]

So because Jones has advantages we can't discuss them. That's stupid.

Of course we can but the discussion often centres around the ludicrous notion that Bones's height and reach is almost exclusively why he's successful. You must've seen the amout of people spouting this rubbish.

But to act like people don't analyze fights/fighters on an MMA forum and talk about physical advantages/disadvantages is just bullshit.

I'm not suggesting that for a second. I talk about other fighters' advantages myself but I also realise there is no one 'Holy grail' of MMA physique. As you appear to as well.

 

[Prex32]

I was surprised at how small DC looked in there.

yeah, it surprised me too. the difference in the ring was huge. dc looked really tiny compared to him. i must admit, i didn't expect that much difference between the two.

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

You didn't provide any examples. You just pulled a bunch of nonsense out of your ass.

Why don't you link to a couple of threads that people have started to complain about Robbie Lawler unfairly punching people too hard, or Cain having too much cardio?

I can find dozens of examples of people complaining about Jones' size without even trying:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/search.php?searchid=29572729

Your link doesn't even work. I'm not saying that people don't complain about Jones' size being an advantage but people also talk about Cain's cardio being an advantage or Hunt's ability to take damage being an advantage or Aldo's size being an advantage but it does happen more with Jones cause he's more popular/notorious, he's just talked about more in general.

Jones has advantages and that's okay, but I think what your talking about is trolls, you can't reason or explain trolls, you just ignore them or mock them.

 

[Shogun Rising]

It's a combination of everything.

Jones understands his advantages and sticks to them. His height advantage was a great tool for him to use against Cormier.

The silliest thing of all of this is people pretending he'll now go and do the same thing to Gustafsson like he didn't try to grapple with Gustafsson the entire fight. What was he? 1 for 11 on takedowns?

 

[kdday]

Yes, it is, and it's where most of the criticism of Jones' in cage ability is rooted. Any claim to the contrary is either down to dishonesty or deliberate obtuseness.

do you think jones would be capable of being the same fighter if he woke up the size of Rashad evans

jones loves to extend his left arm to keep guys in range for kicks and right hands and its a very heavy part of what he does, how would jones striking fare without the massive reach advantage

jones can ragdoll guys in the clinch and keep his hips a mile away while avoiding any threat of a takedown from the clinch, what happens if jones cant do that

to boldly sit there and claim that his reach and height aren't huge factors is just being oblivious

 

[NoBiasJustMMA]

Of course we can but the discussion often centres around the ludicrous notion that Bones's height and reach is almost exclusively why he's successful. You must've seen the amout of people spouting this rubbish.



I'm not suggesting that for a second. I talk about other fighters' advantages myself but I also realise there is no one 'Holy grail' of MMA physique. As you appear to as well.

I have but i've ignored them as they are obviously trolls. If you can make LHW it doesn't matter what your body type is, you have the same mass as the other guy, or it's similar.