Heel Hooks and Courtesy

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by PerfectBalance, Jul 15, 2010.

  1. PerfectBalance

    PerfectBalance Yellow Belt

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    I have been training at a 10th planet gym where a lot of guys go for foot locks and heel hooks. Even the white belts go for heel hooks, which is something I'm not use to; however, I noticed they don't actual finish the twist of the ankle. They just get the postition and then let go, which I appreciate because sometimes my ego can get in the way of me tapping and I end up getting hurt. Just really nice to train with guys who are willing to give up the submission, so I don't ended up rolling and hurting myself. I'm pretty experienced, but the other gyms I have trained at don't do much leg locks. Anyway, back on to the subject do most of your gyms have a don't finish heel hook policy or is this just a given because of the danger of that particular submission; also, what is a good time to tap to a heel hook. My instructor told me that rolling out of it like I did puts me in risk of tearing my Minicus. Any info would help due to the danger of uncharted foot lock territory. Thanks
     
  2. Dirty Deeds

    Dirty Deeds Blue Belt

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    Releasing a heel hook, as soon as the position is obtained, is a good practice. It takes very little pressure to tear up a knee, if you have the right lever or position. As far as rolling out of a heel hook goes, we are taught to do just that. I think the position is dangerous enough that you should tap and compete/train another day, unless you are in a medal match at the worlds or a professional fighter.
     
  3. SuperSuperRambo

    SuperSuperRambo Senior Moderator Senior Moderator

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    I think that's a good practice. It's good to go for leg locks, but when it comes to heel hooks I think the "catch and release" method is the best way to go until you're at an advanced level.

    As far as rolling out, there's a right way and a wrong way to do that. Chances are you were doing it the wrong way, and that's why your instructor cautioned against it.

    Where I train we tend to go by the same rule. I won't tap the second the position is locked in, but I'll tap very quick the second pressure is applied. But I'm also not a white belt.
     
  4. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    I prefer the straight ankle lock in both training and competition, but thats just me. IMO if you can secure and finish a straight ankle, heel hooks are no problem.

    I'd say you're fortunate that the atmosphere of your academy keeps peoples knees in one piece. Some people and gyms see the heel hook as a magic formula, and don't train it properly. Learn some good defenses, and never ever ever try to fight out anything you don't know.
     
  5. Dirty Deeds

    Dirty Deeds Blue Belt

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    I know why you would not want to tap before there was pressure, but by the time that I felt pressure in a leg lock in October, I had a grade 3 ACL tear and minor meniscus tear.
     
  6. Droogan Leader

    Droogan Leader Orange Belt

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    This.

    Even though I'm a white belt (therefore I train mostly with other white belts), I already get annoyed when other white belts try to set up heel hooks. I know that it takes little effort to absolutely shred a knee, and white belts love to spaz.

    Not a move to spaz around with. I would probably lose my shit if someone tried to really yank one during everday training.
     
  7. jonnyquick

    jonnyquick Blue Belt

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    ummmm war NTC
     
  8. dza76wutang

    dza76wutang Black Belt

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    I switched to gi to avoid them. Some guys take practice too seriously and those are moves that go from 0 to surgery within just a few degrees. Even if it's not a bumrush for the win, accidents happen.

    I make my money going to an office and cranking numbers, not fighting, so call me a wuss if you like, but I am consciously avoid heelhooks for the above reasons, and for the sake of disclosure, I'm an avid leg locker.

    More to the topic though: If you can lock down someone's femur bone (I find it particularly effective to think in terms of bones in BJJ for anatomical clues) you can do almost whatever you want to the lower leg. So capture the femur, reap the leg and you're basically done w/ the heel hook, all that's left is gripping (stop here in practice) and turning (stop here in fights/competitions).
     
  9. TalkShowOnMute

    TalkShowOnMute dancingonthecorpsesashes

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    Tap or snapppppappapapa!

    No seriously, I think catch and release is okay as long as you don't really secure it tightly. Even just securing it too tightly there is a risk your partner could twist his own leg the opposite direction of the lock and basically heel hook himself. Especially if he is not aware you are just holding the position of a submission that is not allowed.

    I prefer position over submission, but I love leglocks. I practice them all the time. Straight ankle locks mostly, but I try to find a way to hit them from all positions.

    People that think leglocks are cheap are shallow-sighted and need to be leglocked over and over until they realize how it might be useful to learn some leglocks, counters, and defenses.

    I love when I straight ankle someone out of their spider guard, or whatever elaborate guard/sweep setup they are currently attempting, and they look at me annoyed like I am an asshole for taking the obvious leglock. Their disgust gives me great pleasure.
     
  10. sfgrappler

    sfgrappler White Belt

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    Here's a simple rule of thumb...ask if your training partner does leglocks. And if you don't like them, simply don't roll with the guy.
     
  11. Nogi bear

    Nogi bear White Belt

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    Heel hooks are generally a massive no to anyone who is blue or below at our club. I myself, despite not wanting to be heel hooked - would quite like to learn the awareness of being heel hooked so most of the regular guys I roll with, we play the "don't finish" heel hook game.

    Alot of clubs don't allow the move at all for obvious danger reasons but I think people should be aware of the technique because if they stumble into a comp/fight one day without training it, they be leaving their foot out there just to be tapped.
     
  12. PerfectBalance

    PerfectBalance Yellow Belt

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    No doubt
     
  13. Escape19

    Escape19 White Belt

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    You say your ego gets in the way of tapping? Leave your ego at the door.

    The moment someone get me in a heel hook I tap.

    I strongly suggest you don't try to roll out of it until you are at LEAST a brown belt. Most people who roll do not do it the right way and end up hurting themselves.
     
  14. Bucketbot

    Bucketbot Blue Belt

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    Any school/club/gym should have a set of rules for rolling

    For instance the club i train at:
    No heel hooks or toe holds for anyone below blue (unless otherwise agreed upon, and below blue it is a catch and release game)

    If you are starting at a new club or visiting a club
    someone should go over the club rules with you. If they do not ASK!
     
  15. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I've never trained anywhere where there was a set-in-stone or concrete policy, but I have a very good system that I believe works well.

    It does require you and your partner to trust each other though. When you get to a heelhook or reverse heelhook situation, handfight, do all your normal defense stuff, but if you get past their defense and actually lock up the heel, both of you agree beforehand that that is where you stop, and the person with the heelhook can even say "Checkmate?" if the other guy says yea, then restart. If he is being stubborn, just let it go and move to another position with the knowledge that you had the submission.

    If the both of you want to work on heelhook escapes, or rolling out of the position, you need to make sure you also talk about that before you roll. You can simply say, "hey if you catch a heelhook don't turn it I may try to roll out." That way he can just roll with you but not turn the heel.

    That's not as smart as the first situation though. Once they have the heel really locked in, there's not much you can do, even in a live competition or MMA fight to get out, besides last ditch hail marys.

    Just know your partner, communicate, and if they're new, don't go for heelhooks because they may thrash or spazz and crank their own knee by accident. Especially if gi pants are worn.

    If you're both pretty experienced, I don't think this is necessary for footlocks, toeholds or kneebars. If you get one of those, just don't be a dick. Those are actually safer than a lot of people give credit. The risk of injury due to untangling after the tap is also severely decreased.

    P.S.: That's really cool that even the white belts at your gym have their egos in check and don't crank footlocks and heelhooks on people.

    P.P.S. In competition I will always tap as soon as someone grabs my heel. The only time I won't is when/if I ever get to a advanced level finals at GQuest or ADCC (yeah right lol), an MMA fight, or something like that. Then I'm going "to the death" (c) BJ Penn.
     
  16. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    After Braulio Estima's insta-break last ADCC and Aoki's "I was hoping for an open fracture" break last weekend, I think footlocks are gonna be coming back in a big way. I was always told they were the weakest of the "big five": footlock, kneebar, toehold, heelhook, reverse heelhook; but I disagree. I think the footlock is pretty damn awesome and just as good as any other sub.

    In the Heavies, people have this conception that it's "just a pain move" and that you should never tap out from one. Bas Rutten even said that during the Aoki/Kawajiri fight!

    Maybe people don't know how to do them right?

    EDIT: I'm sorry Bas said that in a PRIDE fight.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2010
  17. ijustwannasurf

    ijustwannasurf Brown Belt

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    I've always had a thing for footlocks. My old blog was even called footlocksandpunkrock.com haha
    Watching Cavaca at Worlds inspired me to work on some different finishes. I couldn't see exactly what he was doing but it was enough to get my gears turning.
    I finally used it in competition this past weekend. I hit three straight ankle locks, only one of which is on video. I'll see if I can post it, it's on someone else's flip video account.

    EDIT- Shameless self-promotion of me footlocking a little guy
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2010
  18. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    I used to get pissed at stuff like that. I had a triangle on my coach, and he grabbed my free foot and did a one-handed toehold and tapped me. I've been Cheeseburger'd ([​IMG])


    and had some crazy CACC subs put on me, and I used to think it was all bullshit. But hey, it's a part of the game, and the sooner you figure it out, the sooner you learn all that sneaky stuff. If you footlocked me from spider guard 2 years ago I would've definitely been annoyed lol.
     
  19. chris1190

    chris1190 Orange Belt

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    If you compete in the advanced division in no gi or plan to in the near future I think you should not just play catch and release. Don't actually finish it but make sure you have control and they can't go anywhere and they will tap if they aren't an idiot. If you just play catch and release your not going to know if you can actually finish and you won't be able to work your escapes when the other guy has one on you.
     
  20. BatBoyJG

    BatBoyJG Brown Belt

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    We do the catch and release at our gym. We also don't let white belts do heel hooks, although they don't understand why sometimes, so I have to thoroughly explain the dangerous to them.
     

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