Heavyweights: Repeat or Revenge

[treelo]

So i got talking to someone today in work about how many Heavyweights come back from a bad loss, and manage to conquer thier conqueror.

There arent many that spring to mind in recent memory, but i am wondering if the more historical minds can think of anymore to add to the following:

Patterson v Ingo
Holyfield v Bowe
Lewis v McCall
Lewis v Rahman

I have omitted returns where the initial loss wasnt bad/brutal.

There are very few fighters who get beaten quite decisively and come back to regain the title...i'd also be curious about how often this happens in lower weights.

 

[Deaths Head]

Not sure about decisively but......

Louis vs Shmelling

Ali vs Frazier

Holmes vs Spinks I thought Holmes won .

Holyfield vs Moorer

Klitschko vs Brewster



Really there’s a lot considering most fighters don’t fight each other twice ,so it’s a good amount . The narrative fights are easier the second time just isn’t true or a fact all the time .

 

[treelo]

Not sure about decisively but......

Louis vs Shmelling
Ali vs Frazier
Klitschko vs Brewster

Really there’s a lot considering most fighters don’t fight each other twice ,so it’s a good amount . The narrative fights are easier the second time just isn’t true or a fact all the time .

I would consider those i have left decisive....and what is also interesting, those that went on to avenge brutal losses, are now considered greats of the sport.

 

[Deaths Head]

I would consider those i have left decisive....and what is also interesting, those that went on to avenge brutal losses, are now considered greats of the sport.

That’s generally what happens in every era . They are bums now but 10 yrs from now fans will be mocking their generation fighters and comparing them to the Wilders , Fury’s and Joshuas of now.Its why I respect MMA a bit more the fans know how to respect current ones.

 

[treelo]

That’s generally what happens in every era . They are bums now but 10 yrs from now fans will be mocking their generation fighters and comparing them to the Wilders , Fury’s and Joshuas of now.Its why I respect MMA a bit more the fans know how to respect current ones.

The demographic of MMA is a completely different one to that of boxing, like comparing apples to baby wipes

 

[Badr Hari]

Lately Kovalev did it with Eleider Alvarez.

Also it's not boxing but Stipe did it with Daniel Cormier.

That being said, I don't think Joshua pulls it off.

 

[aries]

Taking two of those examples, Lewis to be exact, he managed to beat McCall in the second because McCall was mentally shot. And when he lost to Rahman it was because he had really underestimated Rahman and hadn't taken him seriously. When he went into the rematch with the right mindset he destroyed Rahman. I don't see the same thing with Joshua rematching Ruiz. Maybe Joshua underestimated him a bit but not to the extent that Lewis did with Rahman. And Ruiz doesn't look like he's going to fall apart mentally like McCall.

The big factor for me is were the rumours true and was Joshua concussed before he even stepped foot in that ring. IF he was we could see a very different performance this time around. But if not then I think Joshua gets stopped again because 6 months is not enough time to fix the problems I saw in the first fight.

 

[Deaths Head]

Taking two of those examples, Lewis to be exact, he managed to beat McCall in the second because McCall was mentally shot. And when he lost to Rahman it was because he had really underestimated Rahman and hadn't taken him seriously. When he went into the rematch with the right mindset he destroyed Rahman. I don't see the same thing with Joshua rematching Ruiz. Maybe Joshua underestimated him a bit but not to the extent that Lewis did with Rahman. And Ruiz doesn't look like he's going to fall apart mentally like McCall.

The big factor for me is were the rumours true and was Joshua concussed before he even stepped foot in that ring. IF he was we could see a very different performance this time around. But if not then I think Joshua gets stopped again because 6 months is not enough time to fix the problems I saw in the first fight.

The big factor was team AJ trying to save the MSG date and finding a replacement opponent for Miller ,people don’t realize Ruiz was the fourth guy he got to. There was no mayhem going into this fight and that should see AJ no doubt winning tomorrow.

 

[aries]

The big factor was team AJ trying to save the MSG date and finding a replacement opponent for Miller ,people don’t realize Ruiz was the fourth guy he got to. There was no mayhem going into this fight and that should see AJ no doubt winning tomorrow.

I'm a Joshua fan but what I saw last time was Joshua comprehensively getting beat up. Sure there was some chaos with not knowing who his opponent was but during the fight AJ made no adjustments, he was just out of it after the temple shot. The biggest factor for me is whether or not AJ was concussed before the fight. I think if he was that time then a non-concussed AJ will put on a much better performance this time around.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

Taking two of those examples, Lewis to be exact, he managed to beat McCall in the second because McCall was mentally shot. And when he lost to Rahman it was because he had really underestimated Rahman and hadn't taken him seriously. When he went into the rematch with the right mindset he destroyed Rahman. I don't see the same thing with Joshua rematching Ruiz. Maybe Joshua underestimated him a bit but not to the extent that Lewis did with Rahman. And Ruiz doesn't look like he's going to fall apart mentally like McCall.

The big factor for me is were the rumours true and was Joshua concussed before he even stepped foot in that ring. IF he was we could see a very different performance this time around. But if not then I think Joshua gets stopped again because 6 months is not enough time to fix the problems I saw in the first fight.

even if he was concussed a week out it didn’t make any difference. That shot landed in the worst possible place and that was pretty much the end of the fight. It isn’t easy to replicate it with 10 oz gloves on so I’d say it’s unlikely that Ruiz lands the save shot again
The rematch is gonna be a tough fight either way butit wasn’t like he was getting beat up. He was winning rounds so I expect it to be competitive at least

 

[Deaths Head]

I'm a Joshua fan but what I saw last time was Joshua comprehensively getting beat up. Sure there was some chaos with not knowing who his opponent was but during the fight AJ made no adjustments, he was just out of it after the temple shot. The biggest factor for me is whether or not AJ was concussed before the fight. I think if he was that time then a non-concussed AJ will put on a much better performance this time around.

AJ went 4 more rounds after that shot , Joshua will end the fight with the first sign of danger. I really don’t believe Ruiz has even a 15% chance and at about 275 with no garments on to get near Joshua nearly enough.

 

[aries]

even if he was concussed a week out it didn’t make any difference. That shot landed in the worst possible place and that was pretty much the end of the fight. It isn’t easy to replicate it with 10 oz gloves on so I’d say it’s unlikely that Ruiz lands the save shot again
The rematch is gonna be a tough fight either way butit wasn’t like he was getting beat up. He was winning rounds so I expect it to be competitive at least

The temple shots are debilitating but I believe his recovery was compromised because of the prior concussion. If Joshua gets hit hard this time I think we'll see a different reaction. If it really was just down to the shot placement then I think AJ will stop Ruiz this time around.

 

[aries]

AJ went 4 more rounds after that shot , Joshua will end the fight with the first sign of danger. I really don’t believe Ruiz has even a 15% chance and at about 275 with no garments on to get near Joshua nearly enough.

Joshua will have to be far better defensively. The fact that he has slimmed down considerably is a good sign. But the improvement in defence will have to be significant this time.

 

[Jonny Ninja]

The temple shots are debilitating but I believe his recovery was compromised because of the prior concussion. If Joshua gets hit hard this time I think we'll see a different reaction. If it really was just down to the shot placement then I think AJ will stop Ruiz this time around.

fair point!

 

[treelo]

the fact AJ has come out and said he has actually trained boxing this time, and studied boxing to improve his technique is a giant worry for me

he also said that Wlad called him a cross-fit champion...LOL

 

[Deaths Head]

the fact AJ has come out and said he has actually trained boxing this time, and studied boxing to improve his technique is a giant worry for me

he also said that Wlad called him a cross-fit champion...LOL

Wlad changed his mind after the loss handed to him. Vitali also said something about weightlifting, both ate their words.

AJ stating he’s trained more boxing this time can only worry Ruiz who is in over his head if Joshua was not taking the fight seriously last time .

Joshua able to defeat Wlad in only his 19th fight is harder then getting by a short guy in a rematch where you got the first knockdown again .


Joshua will probably win in round 8 or 9 .

 

[aries]

the fact AJ has come out and said he has actually trained boxing this time, and studied boxing to improve his technique is a giant worry for me

he also said that Wlad called him a cross-fit champion...LOL

I'm curious, wouldn't that be a good thing? He looks loads lighter and more mobile this time. Even admitted he was focused too much on benching heavy as opposed to boxing.

 

[treelo]

I'm curious, wouldn't that be a good thing? He looks loads lighter and more mobile this time. Even admitted he was focused too much on benching heavy as opposed to boxing.

Well it is a good thing, but the fact he has had 6 months studying boxing is a giant concern...what exactly was he doing before his loss?

This isnt Rocky, he cant just go and train with Apollo and suddenly turn into a world class mover in that time

 

[aries]

Well it is a good thing, but the fact he has had 6 months studying boxing is a giant concern...what exactly was he doing before his loss?

This isnt Rocky, he cant just go and train with Apollo and suddenly turn into a world class mover in that time

lol I see your point. Whenever I saw Joshua training montages it was always 25% boxing and 75% cutting edge sports science training i.e. him on the battle ropes, flipping tractor tyres and pushing weighted sledges, agility drills, throwing med balls. So yeah I wouldn't be surprised if he went back to more pure boxing. His conditioning program I have always questioned because it always looked focused on his power rather than his endurance which is really his big bugbear. I'm glad he's looking more slimline now. I bet he still hits crazy hard despite the weight loss.

 

[DeJulez]

I put up the stat in an other thread.
HW Champs that took an immediate rematch against the fighter that beat them are 3-5-2 in the second fight.