Heavy / Medium / Light days with 5*5

Discussion in 'Strength & Conditioning Discussion' started by millasur, Aug 13, 2010.

  1. millasur

    millasur Blue Belt

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    Hey,

    I've been doing a version loosely of Bill Starrs 5*5, with increasing weight% per set (usually 60, 70, 80, 85 90/95% for example) I say loosely because I've often been adding sets based on how I feel or admittedly what I fancy doing exercise wise on the day, and mainly because I can't back squat due to lack of power rack (fail).

    What I've just realised is, I didn't notice that it was heavy / light / medium days. How serious is this oversight? I just go as heavy as I can all the time to be honest. I power cleaned on Monday, and deadlifted Weds, and hips were still killing from the monday lol. (what made me think). Only been doing it for a couple of weeks since I've been back from holiday..... Thanks.

    Bill Starr’s 5 x 5 Training : old school workouts
     
  2. pliftkl

    pliftkl Green Belt

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    A power rack is surprisingly not essential to squatting. For the cost of about $20 in lumber and parts, you could build a pair of saw horses. They don't have to be particularly high - just high enough for you to get underneath a bar set across them, and you simply start your squat sets from the bottom position. It's not a long term solution when your squat get up to multiples of your body weight, but since you aren't squatting now, I doubt you are there yet.


    You aren't loosely following Bill Starr's program, you aren't following it. The point of the 5x5 and the other intermediate programs is that they are all about programming for a lifter who can no longer make gains in a progressive linear program. By going at equal intensities for all workouts, you are still taking a linear approach. That isn't a bad thing if you are seeing gains. You could keep doing it until the gains stop, and at that point reprogram to the days of varying intensity.
     
  3. millasur

    millasur Blue Belt

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    Very informative, thanks.

    When I said squatting, I meant back squats - I'm front squatting but the most I can clean to the 'rack' position is a weight I can do for 8-10 reps, so it's not really ideal. I'll look into the saw horses.

    So if this is a progressive linear approach, in simple terms what is the 'other' method? I admit I'm confused lol.

    Regarding the intensities thing - it's because since I've been doing this I've often been sore / feeling beat up at jiujitsu classes, hence wanting to tone it down a little. And yeah, after review, I'm not following 5*5 lol. Will read through it all and reassess. Thanks for the reply!
     
  4. pliftkl

    pliftkl Green Belt

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    A linear approach basically means "try to lift more every workout". At some point, you run into a wall (otherwise everyone could squat 2000 pounds by just adding 10 pounds a week to their squat for 4 years). At that point, you need to start trying to get strength gains over a series of workouts.

    In the Texas Method, 5x5, and most of the other common "intermediate" workouts, this period is typically a week. They are designed (typically) so that you'll "peak" to the highest weights on only one workout per week. The other workouts during the week are done as assistance workouts for the one workout a week that is your true "improvement" workout.
     
  5. millasur

    millasur Blue Belt

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  6. PCP

    PCP Guest

    Just do something else. Fuck working with percents. One bad day and your entire progression is fucked. Plus that "Madcow" routine has little to nothing to do with Bill Starr and everything to do with an anonymous internet person who magically made himself an authority on "scientific weightlifting" back in like 1995, without having a shred of credibility to back himself up.
     
  7. squatsquatsquat

    squatsquatsquat Orange Belt

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    That's an awful lot of opinion right there. I thought it was pretty widely acknowledged on this board that different things work better for different people and that, with time, you'll find out what works for you. It's great to share your experience with something but to outright say "Fuck working with percents" seems pretty ignorant to me. Plenty of people have success with percents.
     
  8. AR6

    AR6 Blue Belt

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    Nah, the madcow has been tried and is legit. If you see one of Starr's 5x5 is VERY similar to madcow. The 5x5 concept is easy to grasp.
    You see there's a point that you must work with %s. If you slept at least some hours, haven't lost a bunch of weight and your mom didnt die the day before and just warm and do squats, you are supposed to do 5 reps once with 80%. If you can't, maybe it's not a bad day. Maybe you just don't want it enough.
     
  9. PCP

    PCP Guest

    Madcow 5x5 goes against a lot of the principles Bill Starr espoused, such as infrequent deadlifting. This isn't my opinion, it's a fact. I also don't like how his little table has you basically wasting a whole month of training lifting easy submaximal weights. Just because something is popular on internet boards doesn't mean it is good.

    I don't work with percents at all. I have a heavy (max effort) day and a light (accessory) day. Most top lifters in the United States also do not use percent training.
     
  10. AR6

    AR6 Blue Belt

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    Infrequent deadlifting? What do you mean? It has you doing a heavy set of 5. Just like Rip's SS, the Texas Method, and pretty much any 5x5.
     
  11. PCP

    PCP Guest

    Actually the original "Starr 5x5" had no deadlifting at all. Starr believed that the best way to raise the deadlift was through special exercises, and never practiced the deadlift. His method of training the deadlift is very similar to the conjugate method employed by Westside Barbell.

    http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/bill-starr-deadlifts-variety-specificty-1201740/
     
  12. AR6

    AR6 Blue Belt

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    And yet he still made some 5x5s WITH the deadlift.
    SS, Texas Method, 5/3/1...they all have a heavy set of deadlifts. Oh and the whole improve your deadlift without deadlifting is made for more experienced lifters. Read the article that you are showing. Look at the numbers he's talking about when it comes to clean pulls. A guy that deadlifts 325x5 needs to keep working with a heavy set of 5.
     
  13. speedtech

    speedtech White Belt

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    I disagree with parts of the above - I've had good results with MC 5x5 (and I don't think I'm the only one), and his training primer makes alot of sense. The four weeks of training lifting submaximal weights serves as a deload so you can make weekly PRs for several weeks before having to deload again due to accumulated fatigue.

    What other principles has MC gone against that Bill Starr espoused?
     
  14. PCP

    PCP Guest

    None of these have anything to do with Bill Starr.


    What makes you think a beginner has to do sets of 5?
     

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