Hazing

[elmo_1968]

A member of a marching band died in a hazing incident, another band member has been sentenced to prison.
http://espn.go.com/college-football...r-sentenced-famu-hazing-death-robert-champion

Should hazing be a crime? By that I mean, if I choose to do something harmful b/c you told me to, are you a criminal? I'm not talking about if you do do something harmful to me, that is a crime.

What do people think of hazing? I never understood it, in college it was prevalent in fraternities and hence they had no appeal to me.

 

[LatFlare]

Article doesn't say how the guy died.

Did he consent to them doing something to him which killed him or did they tell him to do something, which he then did and died as a result?

 

[James Keith]

Seems like the definition of manslaughter fits pretty well here. Didn't need "felony hazing", whatever that is.

 

[ripskater]

It depends. There is a difference between abuse and something that is in the spirit of good fun. I've never been hazed

 

[Lee978]

A member of a marching band died in a hazing incident, another band member has been sentenced to prison.
http://espn.go.com/college-football...r-sentenced-famu-hazing-death-robert-champion

Should hazing be a crime? By that I mean, if I choose to do something harmful b/c you told me to, are you a criminal? I'm not talking about if you do do something harmful to me, that is a crime.

What do people think of hazing? I never understood it, in college it was prevalent in fraternities and hence they had no appeal to me.

Hazing is the practice of rituals and other activities involving harassment, abuse or humiliation used as a way of initiating a person into a group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

If that definition is correct then I think in this case the marching band went too far by actually murdering the initiate and therefore hazing in this case should be a crime. I think you make a good point about criminalizing behavior that someone knew was harmful but decided to take part in anyways (forget what the legal term is for that). However I would argue that the initiate in this case and in many cases of hazing don't expect to be killed therefore I believe it's a crime.

 

[LionExMachina]

From my experience in highschool football, university basketball, working the dish pit, and working as a construction supervisor it's my firm belief any time you get a bunch of guys together doing boring repetitive work some weird gayish roughhousing will emerge.

To this day whenever a certain friend of mine is joking around and getting the best of me via busting my chops, all I have to say is:

"Well at least I'm not the one who had to eat the Dirty Cracker"

...and he gets this nuked expression in his face. The conversational vista empties.

 

[elmo_1968]

Article doesn't say how the guy died.

Did he consent to them doing something to him which killed him or did they tell him to do something, which he then did and died as a result?

My WaPo print article refers to it as a beating death, but the judge refers to the vicitm as a "willing participant". Maybe he was saying "thank you sir, may I have another".

I'm less interested in the particulars of this case than I am in the subject in general.

 

[TeTe]

From my experience in highschool football, university basketball, working the dish pit, and working as a construction supervisor it's my firm belief any time you get a bunch of guys together doing boring repetitive work some weird gayish roughhousing will emerge.

Women can be just as bad, if not worse when it comes to hazing.

My grandfather did pool maintenance in a high school for twenty somethings years and told me crazy stories. One that I remember well is him telling me that the women's swimming coach found a freshman girl tied to a bench in women's swim locker room.. completely naked.. had been drawn all over with a marker that said shit like "whore" "slut" etc. She was bruised from other snapping towels at her and to top it off they pissed all over her. This was the shit that seniors swimmers did to freshman a lot back in the day he said.

 

[elmo_1968]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazing

If that definition is correct then I think in this case the marching band went too far by actually murdering the initiate and therefore hazing in this case should be a crime. I think you make a good point about criminalizing behavior that someone knew was harmful but decided to take part in anyways (forget what the legal term is for that). However I would argue that the initiate in this case and in many cases of hazing don't expect to be killed therefore I believe it's a crime.

If the person being hazed(I'll call him the "pledge" to save typing) pisses off the hazer and the hazer shoots him, traditional law would consider this a crime.

If the hazer is spanking the pledge who is saying "thank you sir, may I have another" after each swat, the pledge would not have a case under traditional laws.

I have my opinions on hazing law but am interested in what other people think.

 

[elmo_1968]

From my experience in highschool football, university basketball, working the dish pit, and working as a construction supervisor it's my firm belief any time you get a bunch of guys together doing boring repetitive work some weird gayish roughhousing will emerge.

To this day whenever a certain friend of mine is joking around and getting the best of me via busting my chops, all I have to say is:

"Well at least I'm not the one who had to eat the Dirty Cracker"

...and he gets this nuked expression in his face. The conversational vista empties.

I've worked in agriculture and construction and never had anything to do w/ hazing. No gayish roughhousing in those jobs either.

Thanks for posting, but your experience is different from mine.

 

[LionExMachina]

I've worked in agriculture and construction and never had anything to do w/ hazing. No gayish roughhousing in those jobs either.

Thanks for posting, but your experience is different from mine.

Indeed.

Maybe the age has something to do with it. My experience was with the under twenty set.

 

[7437]

If the person being hazed(I'll call him the "pledge" to save typing) pisses off the hazer and the hazer shoots him, traditional law would consider this a crime.

If the hazer is spanking the pledge who is saying "thank you sir, may I have another" after each swat, the pledge would not have a case under traditional laws.

I have my opinions on hazing law but am interested in what other people think.

Don't think you are allowed to kill someone if they ask you to do it.

 

[elmo_1968]

Indeed.

Maybe the age has something to do with it. My experience was with the under twenty set.

I'm old now, but I was young when I worked there.

 

[Krav McGraw]

I have been on both sides of it and experienced it in sports, military, and even in the corporate world.

The only purpose it serves is to establish a pecking order which is why it's so prevalent in the military. Other than that its just abuse and should be discouraged. It's hardly ever justifiable and in my opinion shouldn't be tolerated, especially if you're a professional adult.

Is there even a difference between hazing and bullying? Not really.

 

[Bukowski82]

I'm guessing the majority of people that come into this thread with a bad opinion of hazing have never been on many teams or in any tight-knit organizations. I've been hazed like you wouldn't believe on sports teams, in College, the Military and even in High School... And I had fun with all of it. Then I hazed the shit out of people when it was my turn to do so.

It's designed to weed out people with bad attitudes, people that don't want to be part of the organization, to build respect and to induct people into the group, whatever that may be. Most importantly, it's all in good fun. The instant it stops being in good fun, then it's something else entirely. And reasonable just people don't allow that to happen.

It's hard to imagine a situation where a group that someone would actually want to be a part of would cross any real lines, though I'm sure it does happen. But even if that's the case, it's the individuals responsibility to not let them cross that line.

 

[elmo_1968]

I have been on both sides of it and experienced it in sports, military, and even in the corporate world.

The only purpose it serves is to establish a pecking order which is why it's so prevalent in the military. Other than that its just abuse and should be discouraged. It's hardly ever justifiable and in my opinion shouldn't be tolerated, especially if you're a professional adult.

Is there even a difference between hazing and bullying? Not really.

I think you can opt out of hazing, but not bullying.

 

[ripskater]

If the person being hazed(I'll call him the "pledge" to save typing) pisses off the hazer and the hazer shoots him, traditional law would consider this a crime.

If the hazer is spanking the pledge who is saying "thank you sir, may I have another" after each swat, the pledge would not have a case under traditional laws.

I have my opinions on hazing law but am interested in what other people think.

I never had the desire to haze anyone on sports teams. It wasn't in my nature to do that. I've seen football teams make their freshmen do karaoke. It seemed more like team building and probably most of them thought it was fun.

 

[OldGoat]

From my experience in highschool football, university basketball, working the dish pit, and working as a construction supervisor it's my firm belief any time you get a bunch of guys together doing boring repetitive work some weird gayish roughhousing will emerge.

To this day whenever a certain friend of mine is joking around and getting the best of me via busting my chops, all I have to say is:

"Well at least I'm not the one who had to eat the Dirty Cracker"

...and he gets this nuked expression in his face. The conversational vista empties.

It's not the occupation or the recreation it's the people. If you are a nasty SOB you are a nasty SOB.

 

[OldGoat]

I'm guessing the majority of people that come into this thread with a bad opinion of hazing have never been on many teams or in any tight-knit organizations. I've been hazed like you wouldn't believe on sports teams, in College, the Military and even in High School... And I had fun with all of it. Then I hazed the shit out of people when it was my turn to do so.

It's designed to weed out people with bad attitudes, people that don't want to be part of the organization, to build respect and to induct people into the group, whatever that may be. Most importantly, it's all in good fun. The instant it stops being in good fun, then it's something else entirely. And reasonable just people don't allow that to happen.

It's hard to imagine a situation where a group that someone would actually want to be a part of would cross any real lines, though I'm sure it does happen. But even if that's the case, it's the individuals responsibility to not let them cross that line.

Sounds retarded.

You don't need to bully or sodomize people to build respect. Unless you are some form of perv.

 

[elmo_1968]

I'm guessing the majority of people that come into this thread with a bad opinion of hazing have never been on many teams or in any tight-knit organizations. I've been hazed like you wouldn't believe on sports teams, in College, the Military and even in High School... And I had fun with all of it. Then I hazed the shit out of people when it was my turn to do so.

It's designed to weed out people with bad attitudes, people that don't want to be part of the organization, to build respect and to induct people into the group, whatever that may be. Most importantly, it's all in good fun. The instant it stops being in good fun, then it's something else entirely. And reasonable just people don't allow that to happen.

It's hard to imagine a situation where a group that someone would actually want to be a part of would cross any real lines, though I'm sure it does happen. But even if that's the case, it's the individuals responsibility to not let them cross that line.

I'm not sure what you mean by "cross any real lines", but let me ask you this. Do you think any of the people being hazed in your experiences wished the hazing had been less, or even absent altogether?