Haven't seen this exercise before...

Urban said:
I've seen silva's training vid and just because a couple fighters manage to succeed with an exercise does not mean they aren't doing so in spite of their training. On the whole, it's not the best idea.

actually the takedowns with bungee's attached to his waist is not so uncommon and not so bad. The reason being that bungee's increase their resistance at an increasing rate (making the chart exponential and not linear) therefore putting MORE resistance at the proper places (the end of the movement. I beleive jarfi was experimenting with using bands for his striking for just this reason. however, uniform, linear resistance like weights have the same resistance at the beginning of the movement as they do at the end.


Tripple post, this thread was fucked up
 
*Edit*

Refined this post below. Sorry, thought it didn't go through. The board was loopy last night.
 
Urban said:
I've seen silva's training vid and just because a couple fighters manage to succeed with an exercise does not mean they aren't doing so in spite of their training. On the whole, it's not the best idea.

actually the takedowns with bungee's attached to his waist is not so uncommon and not so bad. The reason being that bungee's increase their resistance at an increasing rate (making the chart exponential and not linear) therefore putting MORE resistance at the proper places (the end of the movement. I beleive jarfi was experimenting with using bands for his striking for just this reason. however, uniform, linear resistance like weights have the same resistance at the beginning of the movement as they do at the end.


As far as resistance being put at the end of the movement being consider the "proper place" I'm not so sure I agree with that either. The begining explosiveness/speed of a punch or takedown is just as important as the follow through. I can see how both uniform and gradual weight resistances can affect your technique, but it does not seem like it would be a problem unless you are doing excessive amounts of them.
 
I think the main thing is to get the form and technique down first before trying to add power.
 
I see validity in both Urban and BoxingFan's points, but I lean towards BoxingFan's position. I've seen these movements in too many athletes programs. For one, Bas Rutten also recommends an exercise like this in his DVD's of Combat.

But growing up swimming, we trained with cables, and cable strokes don't come anywhere close to perfectly resembling actual stroke technique in the water, but we were made to understand we were to focus on specific movements in the cable motion (much like Urban said). Cables are used by every D1 program I've seen, including Stanford and University of Texas (who simply OWN swimming).

I agree that sport specific movements are not for new athletes. Everything comes in stages; a beginner to the weight room wouldn't be wasting his time doing these motions, but the opportunity cost of not doing the compound lifts like bench presses and squats would be enormous; however, the same can be true for an advanced athlete. There is a peak for an athlete, not necessarily a place where he can't possibly improve, but definitely a point of diminishing returns where cutting back energy expenditure on the compound lifts doesn't jeopardize his maintenance of those lifts, but does allow more energy to be devoted to introducing these sport-specific motions which will shock his muscles and allow for more rapid gains.
 
JP said:
As far as resistance being put at the end of the movement being consider the "proper place" I'm not so sure I agree with that either. The begining explosiveness/speed of a punch or takedown is just as important as the follow through. I can see how both uniform and gradual weight resistances can affect your technique, but it does not seem like it would be a problem unless you are doing excessive amounts of them.

Yes, actually, as with any plyometric, the amount of power generated at the beginning of the lift is the most important because it requires less work to be done to sustain speed throughout the motion.

The reason for bands that increase resistance throughout the motion (these are more popular than cables in swimming) is because they provide a completely different type of muscular contraction: an isokinetic contraction. This is one of three types of muscular contraction: isotonic, isometric, and isokinetic.

1) Isotonic contractions involve the concentric/eccentric phases- where the muscle is lengthened or shortened, and where the tension is the same throughout the motion.
2) Isometric contractions involve tension of the muscle without lengthening or shortening of the muscle; an example would be the classic conditioning position: the horse stance.
3) Isokinetic contractions are contractions with constant velocity over a full range of motion, regardless of load. So to achieve this, either one needs incredibly expensive equipment, or, the poor man's version, one can maintain constant velocity throughout a motion involving a band where the load increases. This allows one to work the muscle maximally throughout the entire movement, eliminating the "sticking point" (the point at which the muscle is weakest).
 
Madmick said:
I've seen these movements in too many athletes programs. For one, Bas Rutten also recommends an exercise like this in his DVD's of Combat. QUOTE]

which is also one of the reasons why Bas tore his biceps while throwing a punch in the air. I've trained with some of his students and although they tough as nails and great fighters, their training methods are questionable because of injury potential. I'm personally not against added resistance, as long as it doesn't lead to faulty recruitment patterns, which more often than not it does, especially in movements that don't require a weight to be used!

Someone mentioned Vanderlei practicing punches on the cables...well, Urban's bang on the money with his point that Vanderlei is successful in spite of his training. A friend of mine in Brazil who's rolled with Vanderlei on numerous occasions says the guy is an absolute animal in the strength department but lacks in refined skilled. So there's no sense in emulating Vanderlei's or Bas' training because they've got serious injuries as a result of their training methods.

Urban had it right. Get strong in the gym and practice your sport the way it should be done. This is the safest way and the most efficient way of training. It'll prevent your body from falling apart and will keep it work in the way it's supposed to.
 
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