Haven't seen this exercise before...

[Mav3rick]

I was just flipping through one of the threads in the conditioning forum talking about plyometrics and found a link to this site. I have never seen this before, but this looks like it may be a good functional exercise for strikers, especially developing core rotational movement. What do you guys think?

http://www.exrx.net/WeightExercises/Power/CBPushPull.html

 

[AxeGrinder]

I've been doing something like that, but not with cables though....

 

[Mav3rick]

Do you mind describing your exercise?

 

[Ted-P]

Looks like a great idea expect the weights would be clanking and all that shit.

Have you ever tried woodchops?

 

[Urban]

Bah, adding resistance to sport movments changes the technique dramatically, in essence, reprograming your cns with bad techinique. Case in point, sprinting with a sled actually fucks up your sprinting ability. Just ask that cocky bastard we have roaming these halls now and then.

If you want to strengthen your punches, spend more time punching harder. In an Ideal world I imagined a device that was essentially a striking pad attached via some pulley system to pull up a stack of weights. you strike the pad hard enough and the weights lift (for even a split second) and clank when they go down so you know you hit hard enough to move them. You would do sets and reps like this and adjust the weight accordingly. actually I just thought of an alright design for this machine, as I was typing this. maybe I'll make one for shits and giggles.

The beauty of it is that the resistance is placed at the right point in the punch, not all allong, just at the end when the strike makes contact just like a real punch. It assesses your striking power, and if you cannot move the weight, you failed a rep. The Idea is to get used to spend more time punching harder, which as I said, is the best way to get better at hitting harder... well, that and working on your technique which would make proper coaching imperative for using this machine.

Generally speaking, lift weights in a specific manner to improve parts of your punch (rotational, leg drive, pressing etc.) not the whole punch itself.

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

Bah, adding resistance to sport movments changes the technique dramatically, in essence, reprograming your cns with bad techinique. Case in point, sprinting with a sled actually fucks up your sprinting ability. Just ask that cocky bastard we have roaming these halls now and then.

Damn, how much resistance are we talking here to change your technique dramatically?

So what about wearing bag gloves while hitting the heavy bag, or using on-deck donuts, or using overspeed and underspeed training for pitchers.

Your body is a little more adaptable than that, IMHO.

 

[JP]

Bah, adding resistance to sport movments changes the technique dramatically, in essence, reprograming your cns with bad techinique. Case in point, sprinting with a sled actually fucks up your sprinting ability. Just ask that cocky bastard we have roaming these halls now and then.
(rotational, leg drive, pressing etc.) not the whole punch itself.

Don't think thats necessarily true. Watch W.Silva's training videos and you'll see him doing punches on cables similar do what that guy is doing. Also Sean Sherk will do take downs with bungee's attached to his waist pulling him backward.

 

[graedy]

I would prefer woodchoppers to build my rotational power.

 

[Ian Coe]

jesus christ i did not know this ...well actually thanks to Urban and Carnal my life is very much "corrected" thanks Popeye i hope you make this contraption cuz i'll buy it

agreed, you make something that can do that can withstand the punishment, and I'd buy it

 

[Urban]

So what about wearing bag gloves while hitting the heavy bag, or using on-deck donuts, or using overspeed and underspeed training for pitchers.

Firstly, when comparing the weight of boxing gloves to your hand and arm I'd say it's pretty negligable.

Secondly with the donuts (admitedly I wasn't sure what you were talking about at first) you have to understand that again (much like holding weights while you strike) it puts the resistance on the wrong dimension. Weight will inherently pull down, and whether it's punching or hitting a baseball that's almost never where the way the resistance behaves in sport. Because in baseball you're really focusing on the increased torque a better way to do that would be with bats with the same mass as regular bats but with all the weight at the end. To best do this you would want a massless handle and a weight at the end. That would minimize the tendency of the weight to pull down more than normal and still increase the resistance to developing angular momentum.

And I know nothing about under and overspeed training for pitchers. But I do know that some strikers to overspeed training with reasonably heavy dumbells by getting in a dumbell row position and "punching" towards the ground. How well this works I can't say.

Don't think thats necessarily true. Watch W.Silva's training videos and you'll see him doing punches on cables similar do what that guy is doing. Also Sean Sherk will do take downs with bungee's attached to his waist pulling him backward.

I've seen silva's training vid and just because a couple fighters manage to succeed with an exercise does not mean they aren't doing so in spite of their training. On the whole, it's not the best idea.

actually the takedowns with bungee's attached to his waist is not so uncommon and not so bad. The reason being that bungee's increase their resistance at an increasing rate (making the chart exponential and not linear) therefore putting MORE resistance at the proper places (the end of the movement. I beleive jarfi was experimenting with using bands for his striking for just this reason. however, uniform, linear resistance like weights have the same resistance at the beginning of the movement as they do at the end.

 

[colinm]

^^^my highschool football team did a lot of band work like that for speed training. we would get 2 people in harnesses and strap 2 bands between them, setup so that one can run after the other while banded. we would then set up one guy up front and the other guy far enough behind him so that there is already tension in the band.....then do short ( about 40-50 meter) sprints, the top guy going all out and the guy behind him passively resisting/letting himself be pulled. it helped develop our speed a lot and was especially good for running backs (what i did) for when you are plowing through the hole and having to run through arms/other resistance. also gives you a more explosive start. i think it worked well because the bands give you resistance in the right direction......sherk is onto somehting, and is making me want to buy some bands.

 

[Lusst]

^^^my highschool football team did a lot of band work like that for speed training. we would get 2 people in harnesses and strap 2 bands between them, setup so that one can run after the other while banded. we would then set up one guy up front and the other guy far enough behind him so that there is already tension in the band.....then do short ( about 40-50 meter) sprints, the top guy going all out and the guy behind him passively resisting/letting himself be pulled. it helped develop our speed a lot and was especially good for running backs (what i did) for when you are plowing through the hole and having to run through arms/other resistance. also gives you a more explosive start. i think it worked well because the bands give you resistance in the right direction......sherk is onto somehting, and is making me want to buy some bands.

Yeah, we did this in a summer program. We also used parachutes strapped to our torsos. I wasnt a back, but my speed was put to better use as a linebacker. :icon_lol:

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

Firstly, when comparing the weight of boxing gloves to your hand and arm I'd say it's pretty negligable.

Secondly with the donuts (admitedly I wasn't sure what you were talking about at first) you have to understand that again (much like holding weights while you strike) it puts the resistance on the wrong dimension. Weight will inherently pull down, and whether it's punching or hitting a baseball that's almost never where the way the resistance behaves in sport. Because in baseball you're really focusing on the increased torque a better way to do that would be with bats with the same mass as regular bats but with all the weight at the end. To best do this you would want a massless handle and a weight at the end. That would minimize the tendency of the weight to pull down more than normal and still increase the resistance to developing angular momentum.

And I know nothing about under and overspeed training for pitchers. But I do know that some strikers to overspeed training with reasonably heavy dumbells by getting in a dumbell row position and "punching" towards the ground. How well this works I can't say.

Well, under and overspeed pitching, is simply where you train throwing heavier and lighter baseballs. Adding resistance or reducing it, both shown to be able to increase overall throwing velocity.

Adding resistance to sport movements will not decrease your technique and can actually improve overall performance in alot of cases, if done right.

If you think incorporating added resistance to sport movments will reprogram your cns with bad technique, well this guy must be hurting his technique then

and this guy has "fuck up my sprinting ability" written all over him

 

[Urban]

ok, so you think that you're on the same level as them, have a routine as complex as they do and have the same level of physical ability as these elite athletes? You don't need my advice then, and you certainly don't need to be farting around here trying to convince one person of the benefits of this training.

I'm not a coach of elite athletes, nor to I profess to be one. But for 99% of the people here who are NOT elite athletes, and do NOT compete at high levels of their sport, and DON'T have all the time in the world to train, and CANNOT fit shit like that into their routine because they have to spend more time on shit that gets them 90% of the way there without ever having to worry about spending twice as much time working at that extra ten percent.

My guess is that they probably use that shit in a way that you could chalk up to gpp, while devoting at least twice as much time within the same cycle to maintaining technique (not working on performance) in their sport. There's a big difference to that and how most people will apply these methods, and it has to do with the amount of time you can afford to put into training. Most fighters (and ESPECIALLY people on here) would be better off hitting the bag harder than worrying striking with resistance.

lastly, under and overspeed pitching would be ok I think. unless they're using shotputs or something. But I don't profess to know everything about baseball (least of all pitching) so I'd have to learn more before ever reccomending that to anybody.

 

[101pro]

Overspeed and underspeed training can be effectively used in an appropriately periodized scheme. I remember an article by bondarchuck that mentioned using heavier and lighter weights. Even Charlie Francis may permit sprinting with a very light resistance. The thing is these things must be carefully monitored by a proficient sport coach who can check technique, and not haphazardly added by someone who doesn;t know what they are doing/

Also, the resistance must be minimal and sound technique must also be in place before such methods are used.

The general guideline is 10-20%. The resistance shouldn;t alter performance by more than 10-20%.

So if you sprint a 10 sec 100m and you use a sled you should run a 11 or 12 sec 100m

The use of the batting doughnut is not the same as overspeed and underspeed training, and the # of repetitions would be minimal, read not mess up technique. That is a poor example. The sled on the otherhand is being used in a workout.

Most coaches use these methods with no where near the understanding of sport biomechanics to apply such methods

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

I never said using an on-deck donut is the same as underspeed training. Thats what weighted bats are for. I used it as an example of adding resistance to a sport motion, not as an example of underspeed training.

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

ok, so you think that you're on the same level as them, have a routine as complex as they do and have the same level of physical ability as these elite athletes? You don't need my advice then, and you certainly don't need to be farting around here trying to convince one person of the benefits of this training.

I'm not a coach of elite athletes, nor to I profess to be one. But for 99% of the people here who are NOT elite athletes, and do NOT compete at high levels of their sport, and DON'T have all the time in the world to train, and CANNOT fit shit like that into their routine because they have to spend more time on shit that gets them 90% of the way there without ever having to worry about spending twice as much time working at that extra ten percent.

My guess is that they probably use that shit in a way that you could chalk up to gpp, while devoting at least twice as much time within the same cycle to maintaining technique (not working on performance) in their sport. There's a big difference to that and how most people will apply these methods, and it has to do with the amount of time you can afford to put into training. Most fighters (and ESPECIALLY people on here) would be better off hitting the bag harder than worrying striking with resistance.

lastly, under and overspeed pitching would be ok I think. unless they're using shotputs or something. But I don't profess to know everything about baseball (least of all pitching) so I'd have to learn more before ever reccomending that to anybody.

How in the hell do you judge someone's athletic potential here, by the font size they use?

I dont care if I am training somebody for the special olympics, I still give them correct information. I just dont make shit up, so they can pass bad advice on to other people, just because I feel I am somehow saving them time while they figure out thay cant compete at a top level, or however you are trying to justify it.

If you felt this particular exercise wasnt helpful or time efficient, why didnt you say that. How, did that get converted into the obvioulsy wrong blanket statment

"Bah, adding resistance to sport movments changes the technique dramatically, in essence, reprograming your cns with bad techinique. Case "

 

[CarnalSalvation]

I think his point was, it wasn't an issue of validity, but one of timing and appropriacy.

 

[CarnalSalvation]

I feel like I need to make some poop.

 

[JP]

I've seen silva's training vid and just because a couple fighters manage to succeed with an exercise does not mean they aren't doing so in spite of their training. On the whole, it's not the best idea.

actually the takedowns with bungee's attached to his waist is not so uncommon and not so bad. The reason being that bungee's increase their resistance at an increasing rate (making the chart exponential and not linear) therefore putting MORE resistance at the proper places (the end of the movement. I beleive jarfi was experimenting with using bands for his striking for just this reason. however, uniform, linear resistance like weights have the same resistance at the beginning of the movement as they do at the end.

Tripple post, this thread was fucked up