Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

My bad then. Yeah though it is weird... we've heard about the incoming new breed evolution of the super HW for 20 years now and it's been flopping since Kerr failed to LNP Igor. Yet it happened for the 100th time with Stipe being an underdog to Francis who was marketed with such brilliant gems of fight analysis such as "it is like he is not even real, he worked in a mine" by Rogan.

The funny part isn't how often it flops... the funny part is the 100th time they forgot the 99 flops before. Now that Francis gassed in the first and lost 50-45 we're out of it but I predict it doesn't last a year before the next bullshit talk of "evolution" past the 265 limit.
I still think there has been evolution though. But I believe stipe is the sign of evolution as opposed to Francis. And Cain was before Stipe, and junior before him.
 
I agree with a lot of what you are saying but there were plenty big HWs in the mid 2000s.

Barnett was 6'3 and 250 pounds
Sergei was 6'4 and 242 pounds
Aleks was 6'5 and 260 pounds
Werdum was 6'4 and 245
ArlovskI was 6'4 and 245
Sylvia was 6'7 and 280
Ricco was 6'3 and 240
Mir was 6'3 and 240
Erikson was 6"3 and 320
Hunt was short but 300 pounds
Coleman was 6'1 and 250 poujds
Herring was 6'4 and 240 pounds
Kerr was 6'2 and 255 pounds
Schilt was 6'11 and 290 pounds
McGee was 6'10 and 270 pounds

And Nog was 6'4 and sometimes bulked up to 240. The only real successful small HWs were Fedor, Randy and Cro Cop.
Nog is noticeably shorter than Werdum who was noticeably shorter than Stipe and yet they're all 6'4"...hmmmm...

I can absolutely confirm stipe is 6'4" though
 
DC, a LHW, is about to fight for the UFC Heavyweight title.

And look at the post by Stevanchez just a few posts back ITT about size

So dc is now a lhw even tho he has beat like 4 top 10 hws yet you claim Jones is a hw dodging his natural weight class. The hypocrisy is hilarious in your posts!
 
Which new skills is he relying on then exactly?

Arlovski's a better striker than when he was champ. He just has a worse chin nowadays, hence why he loses.

Being better skillwise but still losing fights =/= the sport hasn't evolved. Arlovski is better, he's just older.
 
The ability to make 205 is indicative of your size. You saying they rose up to a peak in 09 and now coming back down to 240 is an evolution itself. at first, small men could compete with skill and speed to their advantage. Then gigantic, strong men started to take over. Now the best heavyweights are 240ish and lean, that is to say, they don't have to ability to healthily make 205. Those are all evolutions. It doesn't hurt my argument that the current champ is arguable the most technically sharp across multiple skill sets, athletic, coordinated and quick heavyweight we've seen and an incredibly lean 240-245. He is an example of the evolution, himself. As was Cain, and every heavyweight prior.

I disagree with your assessment of rumble and Maldonado btw, and Maldonado is actually a great example because he's even bigger than MW and still got crushed, plus he could've made MW but fought higher, just like Wanderlei

When did big giant men take over exactly? Since 2002 there has been only 1 giant ranked as the #1 HW and he got destroyed by the smallest HW currently in the UFC top 10.

If they got rid of the 205 lb division right now and Jon Jones, Daniel Cormier, Gus and Rumble were moved into the top 10.... do you really think they wouldn't be competitive?



Maldonado is a bad example because he's not any good.
 
Arlovski's a better striker than when he was champ. He just has a worse chin nowadays, hence why he loses.

Being better skillwise but still losing fights =/= the sport hasn't evolved. Arlovski is better, he's just older.

You think Andrei Arlovski now would have beaten Andrei Arlovski from 10 years ago?

Give me some of the shit that you're smoking pls
 
You think Andrei Arlovski now would have beaten Andrei Arlovski from 10 years ago?

Give me some of the shit that you're smoking pls

Arlovski had a better chin, but what was he better at?

He's a better striker than when he was champ, and his grappling is the same as ever.
 
So dc is now a lhw even tho he has beat like 4 top 10 hws yet you claim Jones is a hw dodging his natural weight class. The hypocrisy is hilarious in your posts!
Somebody said none of the current HWs can make 205 so that is why I brought up DC fighting for the HW title. You must not have saw the post I replied to
<seedat>
 
Nog is noticeably shorter than Werdum who was noticeably shorter than Stipe and yet they're all 6'4"...hmmmm...

I can absolutely confirm stipe is 6'4" though
Nog is normally listed as 6'3.
 
So, I just kinda want to put a little wrench in the whole, "HWs are so much bigger today" thing. Since 2004, the average height has been 6'3" and the average weight has fluctuated between 245lbs & 253lbs(except 2007 243lbs).

Current Top 10: Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Ngannou 6'4" 263
3. Overeem 6'4" 247
4. Werdum 6'4" 249
5. Cain 6'1" 242
6. Dos Santos 6'4" 245
7. Minakov 6'2" 260
8. Hunt 5'10" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Barnett 6'3" 256

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 253


Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 226
2. Couture 6'1" 225
3. Coleman 6'1" 235
4. Herring 6'4" 254
5. Rizzo 6'1" 235
6. Barnett 6'3" 243
7. Sperry 6'2" 231
8. Fujita 6'1" 245
9. Igor 5'8" 228
10. Schilt 6'11" 261

Avg. Height= 6'2"
Avg. Weight= 238

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 234
2. Barnett 6'3" 246
3. Rodriguez 6'4" 243
4. Fedor 5'11" 228
5. Sapp 6'5" 350
6. Couture 6'1" 227
7. Herring 6'4" 250
8. McGee 6'10" 264
9. Igor 5'8" 235
10. Rizzo 6'1" 246

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 252(-Sapp=241)

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 236
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 225
4. Barnett 6'3" 250
5. Sylvia 6'8" 262
6. Sapp 6'5" 356
7. Rodriguez 6'4" 246
8. Herring 6'4" 254
9. McGee 6'10" 265
10. Igor 5'8" 220

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 255(-Sapp=243)

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 228
4. Mir 6'3" 253
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Arlovski 6'4" 240
7. Barnett 6'3" 250
8. Sergei 6'4" 240
9. Herring 6'4" 247
10. Rizzo 6'1" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Hunt 5'10" 275
4. Cro Cop 6'2" 220
5. Barnett 6'3" 250
6. Mir 6'3" 253
7. Arlovski 6'4" 241
8. Sylvia 6'8" 264
9. Sergei 6'4" 244
10. Werdum 6'4" 242

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 246

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 228
2. Nogueira 6'3" 242
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 221
4. Barnett 6'3" 258
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Hunt 5'10" 290
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Monson 5'10" 240
9. Vera 6'3" 231
10. Cruz 6'4" 236

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 235
2. Couture 6'1" 229
3. Nogueira 6'3" 241
4. Sylvia 6'8" 261
5. Barnett 6'3" 258
6. Gonzaga 6'2" 252
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Werdum 6'4" 247
9. Kongo 6'4" 240
10. Cro Cop 6'2" 230

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 243

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Arlovski 6'4" 241
3. Barnett 6'3" 256
4. Mir 6'3" 251
5. Nogueira 6'3" 246
6. Lesnar 6'3" 265
7. Couture 6'1" 220
8. Sylvia 6'8" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Overeem 6'4" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 248

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Mir 6'3" 264
4. Nogueira 6'3" 241
5. Rogers 6'6" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 248
7. Arlovski 6'4" 244
8. Dos Santos 6'4" 236
9. Cain 6'1" 238
10. Carwin 6'2" 260

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 249

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 244
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Werdum 6'4" 240
4. Fedor 5'11" 229
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
6. Carwin 6'2" 265
7. Mir 6'3" 252
8. Overeem 6'4" 260
9. Nogueira 6'3" 233
10. Silva 6'4" 263

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Rankings
1. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
2. Cain 6'1" 249
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Lesnar 6'3" 265
6. Carwin 6'2" 254
7. Mir 6'3" 260
8. Nogueira 6'3" 240
9. Barnett 6'3" 261
10. Cormier 5'11" 247

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 252

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 240
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Cormier 5'11" 238
6. Mir 6'3" 261
7. Nogueira 6'3" 243
8. Silva 6'4" 265
9. Barnett 6'3" 248
10. Russow 6'2" 248

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
3. Werdum 6'4" 242
4. Cormier 5'11" 224
5. Silva 6'4" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 252
7. Mir 6'3" 248
8. Nogueira 6'3" 243
9. Browne 6'7" 242
10. Gonzaga 6'2" 257

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 245

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 242
3. Werdum 6'4" 232
4. Browne 6'7" 243
5. Hunt 5'10" 264
6. Miocic 6'4" 243
7. Arlovski 6'4" 248
8. Barnett 6'3" 252
9. Silva 6'4" 264
10. Nelson 6'0" 260

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Rankings
1. Werdum 6'4" 236
2. Cain 6'1" 242
3. Overeem 6'4" 243
4. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
5. Miocic 6'4" 243
6. Arlovski 6'4" 238
7. Browne 6'7" 237
8. Rothwell 6'4" 265
9. Hunt 5'10" 265
10. Minakov 6'2" 251

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 246

Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Werdum 6'4" 240
3. Cain 6'1" 243
4. Overeem 6'4" 249
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 241
6. Rothwell 6'4" 264
7. Barnett 6'3" 256
8. Arlovski 6'4" 238
9. Minakov 6'2" 258
10. Lewis 6'3" 265

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 250
I appreciate the effort but your stats are false.

Top heavyweight fight from 2004, both fighters 225 pounds.



Nogueira was ranked all those years, but was around 225 pounds all is Pride career, never over 240 like you wrote.


The top 4 heavyweights of the last decade, Fedor, Nogueria, Couture and Crocop were around 220 pounds, today 220 pounds heavyweights don't exist, this is a fact.



As usual Pride nerds on the rescue.



2 times heavyweight champ Frank Mir said that mma indeed has evolved, so let's accept it and move on.
 
Last edited:
Lesnar, Carwin, Duffey... War new breed!!
Hey now! Those guys were incredibly evolved! You know.. If people meant slower, heavier, shittier endurance, and less mobile fighters are all examples of the heavies evolving well then they're absolutely correct.
 
First and foremost, yes I agree the sport of MMA has evolved. Obviously guys can focus on training full time and dedicate their lives to becoming an MMA fighter. However, I have been seeing a lot of hypothetical "can X compete today" threads, resulting in many saying MMA has evolved too much.

With regards to the HW division, maybe even LHW, I disagree with the evolution. We still see guys like Lewis and Ngannou who are big brawlers. Not to mention, guys like Hunt (43), Overeem (37), Werdum (40), and Arlosvki (39) all come from that era and are still top 10 fighters (to my recollection at least). Maybe I am oblivious, but I genuinely do not see this suppsoed "evolution" among the top fighters in the HW division. Aside from Stipe and healthy Cain of course. Even at LHW, aside from Jones (roids), DC, and Gus, I don't see a huge evolution.

I believe guys like Randy, Cro Cop, Fedor, and Big Nog could all compete today.

NOTE: I'm a pleb and can't add a poll/don't know how.

I think the division is too thin personally and you need name power. USADA wasn’t around so it’s hard to say. I don’t think the game passed these guys by and I see what your getting at. But to assume no evolution in training,rule changes,weight cut ,idk man
 
Today’s Ngannou would most likely be the best hw 10 years ago

Who was gonna stop him?

230 fatty fedor

Or 220 Mirko?

How about human punching bag big nog?

Just cause 6’4 240 stipe with well rounded mma game was able to neutralize ngannou m I suppose to believe men much smaller with lesser skill set would be able to do the same?

10 years ago Ngannou would have been submitted as soon as his ass hit the canvas.
 
10 years ago Ngannou would have been submitted as soon as his ass hit the canvas.
Yeah your right. He wouldn't have gotten the lay and pray treatment. I mean all it took from Stipe was very basic single/double leg takedowns to get that giant "super athlete" to the ground. Honestly I was surprised Stipe manhandled him so easily. Thought that dude would be stronger than him, for a little while until he gassed which was rather quickly.
 
Its gone backwards badly. Tank Abbott would knock guys like Christian Colombo out cold. Dan Severn would tap most of them out too.

A lot of the fighters in UFC HW division are only part time fighters, I saw a list a while back on here and so many of them have other jobs, we know Stipe is only part time, he is a fireman. But a lot of them are police officers and security guards. They barely even train
 
I 100% believe prime big nog would be champ right now. I recently got fight pass and have been binging on pride and am so impressed with his quickness, boxing, takedowns and transitions. He was so well rounded. Sergi and aleks are also much better than most of the current division. And also fedor and cro cop obviously are the top talents next to nog.

~DaViD~
 
This is roughly what the top 10 in 2004 looked like.

1. Fedor Emelianenko
2. Antonio Rodrigo "Minotauro" Nogueira
3. Mirko "Cro Cop" Filipovic
4. Tim Sylvia
5. Josh Barnett
6. Andrei Arlovski
7. Heath Herring
8. Mark Coleman
9. Pedro Rizzo
10. Ricco Rodriguez

I believe anyone of those fighters from 04 would be top 10 today. Maybe with the exception of Heath Herring.
Don't see Coleman, Barnett and cc surviving the usada era.

Even add slyvia in there.
 
Thats a solid observation, I still believe they would make the top 10 if they were young and healthy.
True I wouldn't really be able to turn around and say they wouldn't.

Would have most of them fav against 6-10 will probably underdog to 1-5.
 

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