Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

[Hypetrainhipsta]

You also have to remember that HW was one of the first, if not the first, divisions that had high level athletes cross over, thing about all the high level wrestlers like Coleman, Kerr or Randleman, the Russian Sambo guys and strikers like Cro Cop and then Hunt, over the years the talent pool hasn't really grown.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

They sure as hell aren’t in the ufc ya dolt.

There's 7 of them in the HW top 15.

Dolt.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Well, at the most base level, there has been an increase in the size of heavyweights. There isn't a single top five heavyweight who could make 205. Also, a top level heavyweight today versus a middleweight would be a complete squash match, just like Stipe v Maldonado. I know fabio isn't a MW but he could've made it for sure. They weren't even sure back then if Wanderlei v Crocop was a mismatch

DC, a LHW, is about to fight for the UFC Heavyweight title.

And look at the post by Stevanchez just a few posts back ITT about size

 

[grimballer]

Of course

S/c is much better now. Fighters are also much more well versed N bigger

10 years ago it was still style vs style

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Of course

S/c is much better now. Fighters are also much more well versed N bigger

10 years ago it was still style vs style

Style vs style? That was the 90's. We are talking about the 2000s. (Actually 2008 in this thread)

And they are not bigger today.

And that S/C from the UFC Performance Institute really helped Ngannou didn't it? Was that evolved cardio and evolved grappling?

How about 43 year old PRIDE vet Hunt outlasting 32 year #6 UFC HW Lewis? How was that S/C?

How about Cain's legendary cardio and striking versus old Werdum?

Evolved S/c?

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

Of course

S/c is much better now. Fighters are also much more well versed N bigger

10 years ago it was still style vs style

So which guys are showing this improved S/C ?

Half of the top 10 can barely go one round without gassing and most of the fighters are 40 years old.

 

[Final Say]

... but they're not really any bigger as one poster already just proved less than a page ago in this thread. HWs were bigger in 2009 than they are now.

Also, bigger doesn't mean better anyway. Almost every #1 for the last 15 years has been around 240 lbs. Almost every big HW that's come along and been touted as this "New Breed" was destroyed by smaller, faster HWs.

Why are you bringing up Maldonado? He's not a middleweight nor is he a high-level fighter. Rumble would do the same thing to him that Stipe did and Rumble is a LHW.

The ability to make 205 is indicative of your size. You saying they rose up to a peak in 09 and now coming back down to 240 is an evolution itself. at first, small men could compete with skill and speed to their advantage. Then gigantic, strong men started to take over. Now the best heavyweights are 240ish and lean, that is to say, they don't have to ability to healthily make 205. Those are all evolutions. It doesn't hurt my argument that the current champ is arguable the most technically sharp across multiple skill sets, athletic, coordinated and quick heavyweight we've seen and an incredibly lean 240-245. He is an example of the evolution, himself. As was Cain, and every heavyweight prior.

I disagree with your assessment of rumble and Maldonado btw, and Maldonado is actually a great example because he's even bigger than MW and still got crushed, plus he could've made MW but fought higher, just like Wanderlei

 

[Metheus]

I hate when people bring up Arlovski, when Arlovski is still relevant over a decade later as he's still a very good offensive striker with lots of power. More importantly though, he's a better striker than when he was champ, and a better striker than a lot of the division.

You shouldn't be going disparaging a guy who's still relevant for being better than he was back then. He's doing exactly what one would hope to do to still be relevant. He's not like certain other fighters who are refusing to try and improve, which is why they're losing.

Um...

What are you talking about?

-Arlovski is Old Breed...which is why I brought him up.
-He's still relevant today... which is why I brought him up.
-He's one of the guys who has been around for quite a while as a HW and is winning fights...which is why I brought him up.

I'm not sure how that in ANY way translates into disparaging him. Quite frankly I was disparaging the REST of the HW division, which has NOT evolved in any meaningful way. That is what the thread is about...which is why I brought him up.

 

[grimballer]

So which guys are showing this improved S/C ?

Half of the top 10 can barely go one round without gassing and most of the fighters are 40 years old.

So what you’re saying is guys like werdum n hunt didn’t improve from 10 years ago? They’re exactly same fighters they were 10 years ago?

N they’re gassing cause they’re all much bigger

What was ave hw size 10 years ago?

Couture was top hw at 220, could you imagine a 220 hw today?

 

[markg171]

Um...

What are you talking about?

-Arlovski is Old Breed...which is why I brought him up.
-He's still relevant today... which is why I brought him up.
-He's one of the guys who has been around for quite a while as a HW and is winning fights...which is why I brought him up.

I'm not sure how that in ANY way translates into disparaging him. Quite frankly I was disparaging the REST of the HW division, which has NOT evolved in any meaningful way. That is what the thread is about...which is why I brought him up.

The point was that Arlovski is still relevant as he’s not relying on his skills from a decade ago. He’s improving himself, hence why he’s still here.

A better example of your point would be a top 15 fighter who’s still ranked despite having not improved at all. Talking about fighters who bother to improve doesn’t prove that the division hasn’t evolved, it’s the opposite.

 

[grimballer]

Style vs style? That was the 90's. We are talking about the 2000s. (Actually 2008 in this thread)

And they are not bigger today.

And that S/C from the UFC Performance Institute really helped Ngannou didn't it? Was that evolved cardio and evolved grappling?

How about 43 year old PRIDE vet Hunt outlasting 32 year #6 UFC HW Lewis? How was that S/C?

How about Cain's legendary cardio and striking versus old Werdum?

Evolved S/c?

Today’s Ngannou would most likely be the best hw 10 years ago

Who was gonna stop him?

230 fatty fedor

Or 220 Mirko?

How about human punching bag big nog?

Just cause 6’4 240 stipe with well rounded mma game was able to neutralize ngannou m I suppose to believe men much smaller with lesser skill set would be able to do the same?

 

[Dionysian]

The ability to make 205 is indicative of your size. You saying they rose up to a peak in 09 and now coming back down to 240 is an evolution itself. at first, small men could compete with skill and speed to their advantage. Then gigantic, strong men started to take over. Now the best heavyweights are 240ish and lean, that is to say, they don't have to ability to healthily make 205. Those are all evolutions. It doesn't hurt my argument that the current champ is arguable the most technically sharp across multiple skill sets, athletic, coordinated and quick heavyweight we've seen and an incredibly lean 240-245. He is an example of the evolution, himself. As was Cain, and every heavyweight prior.

I disagree with your assessment of rumble and Maldonado btw, and Maldonado is actually a great example because he's even bigger than MW and still got crushed, plus he could've made MW but fought higher, just like Wanderlei

Weird that you're arguing that a consistency is evidence of non-consistency. The OW champ of the world has been around 240 pounds in MMA and boxing almost constantly for much more than a decade. That seems to suggest consistency. There was never a peak of super HWs in 09 (that year Cain/Fedor/JDS/Werdum all existed) but rather a peak in marketing of super HWs. Obviously history has shown how much of that was marketing and how much was reality.

Stipe being the 240 pound OW champ is the same as Klitschko, Cain, JDS, Fedor, and Nog being a 240 pound guy that was the #1 HW on Earth. We have case after case after case showing it to be the OW champ's weight, despite the marketing to size queens that ended up being flops over and over and over throughout the last 20 years.

 

[Final Say]

Weird that you're arguing that a consistency is evidence of non-consistency. The OW champ of the world has been around 240 pounds in MMA and boxing almost constantly for much more than a decade. That seems to suggest consistency. There was never a peak of super HWs in 09 (that year Cain/Fedor/JDS/Werdum all existed) but rather a peak in marketing of super HWs. Obviously history has shown how much of that was marketing and how much was reality.

Stipe being the 240 pound OW champ is the same as Klitschko, Cain, JDS, Fedor, and Nog being a 240 pound guy that was the #1 HW on Earth. We have case after case after case showing it to be the OW champ's weight, despite the marketing to size queens that ended up being flops over and over and over throughout the last 20 years.

What I was talking about in 09 was a peak in the average weight of heavyweights, which is something that other guy asserted and I just went with. I don't even know if it's true.

 

[wearetheromans]

truth hurt

Idiot brain hurt

 

[Dionysian]

What I was talking about in 09 was a peak in the average weight of heavyweights, which is something that other guy asserted and I just went with. I don't even know if it's true.

My bad then. Yeah though it is weird... we've heard about the incoming new breed evolution of the super HW for 20 years now and it's been flopping since Kerr failed to LNP Igor. Yet it happened for the 100th time with Stipe being an underdog to Francis who was marketed with such brilliant gems of fight analysis such as "it is like he is not even real, he worked in a mine" by Rogan.

The funny part isn't how often it flops... the funny part is the 100th time they forgot the 99 flops before. Now that Francis gassed in the first and lost 50-45 we're out of it but I predict it doesn't last a year before the next bullshit talk of "evolution" past the 265 limit.

 

[wearetheromans]

Today’s Ngannou would most likely be the best hw 10 years ago

Who was gonna stop him?

230 fatty fedor

Or 220 Mirko?

How about human punching bag big nog?

Just cause 6’4 240 stipe with well rounded mma game was able to neutralize ngannou m I suppose to believe men much smaller with lesser skill set would be able to do the same?

Sapp was about 80 pounds bigger than ngannou and terrified people before he started taking dives

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

The point was that Arlovski is still relevant as he’s not relying on his skills from a decade ago. He’s improving himself, hence why he’s still here.

A better example of your point would be a top 15 fighter who’s still ranked despite having not improved at all. Talking about fighters who bother to improve doesn’t prove that the division hasn’t evolved, it’s the opposite.

Which new skills is he relying on then exactly?

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

So what you’re saying is guys like werdum n hunt didn’t improve from 10 years ago? They’re exactly same fighters they were 10 years ago?

N they’re gassing cause they’re all much bigger

What was ave hw size 10 years ago?

Couture was top hw at 220, could you imagine a 220 hw today?

The average size of HW's was almost exactly the same 10 years ago.... as someone has already posted in this thread.

 

[KingKali]

So, I just kinda want to put a little wrench in the whole, "HWs are so much bigger today" thing. Since 2004, the average height has been 6'3" and the average weight has fluctuated between 245lbs & 253lbs(except 2007 243lbs).

Current Top 10: Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Ngannou 6'4" 263
3. Overeem 6'4" 247
4. Werdum 6'4" 249
5. Cain 6'1" 242
6. Dos Santos 6'4" 245
7. Minakov 6'2" 260
8. Hunt 5'10" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Barnett 6'3" 256

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 253

Spoiler: 2001 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 226
2. Couture 6'1" 225
3. Coleman 6'1" 235
4. Herring 6'4" 254
5. Rizzo 6'1" 235
6. Barnett 6'3" 243
7. Sperry 6'2" 231
8. Fujita 6'1" 245
9. Igor 5'8" 228
10. Schilt 6'11" 261

Avg. Height= 6'2"
Avg. Weight= 238

Spoiler: 2002 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 234
2. Barnett 6'3" 246
3. Rodriguez 6'4" 243
4. Fedor 5'11" 228
5. Sapp 6'5" 350
6. Couture 6'1" 227
7. Herring 6'4" 250
8. McGee 6'10" 264
9. Igor 5'8" 235
10. Rizzo 6'1" 246

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 252(-Sapp=241)

Spoiler: 2003 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 236
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 225
4. Barnett 6'3" 250
5. Sylvia 6'8" 262
6. Sapp 6'5" 356
7. Rodriguez 6'4" 246
8. Herring 6'4" 254
9. McGee 6'10" 265
10. Igor 5'8" 220

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 255(-Sapp=243)

Spoiler: 2004 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 228
4. Mir 6'3" 253
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Arlovski 6'4" 240
7. Barnett 6'3" 250
8. Sergei 6'4" 240
9. Herring 6'4" 247
10. Rizzo 6'1" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2005 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Hunt 5'10" 275
4. Cro Cop 6'2" 220
5. Barnett 6'3" 250
6. Mir 6'3" 253
7. Arlovski 6'4" 241
8. Sylvia 6'8" 264
9. Sergei 6'4" 244
10. Werdum 6'4" 242

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 246

Spoiler: 2006 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 228
2. Nogueira 6'3" 242
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 221
4. Barnett 6'3" 258
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Hunt 5'10" 290
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Monson 5'10" 240
9. Vera 6'3" 231
10. Cruz 6'4" 236

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2007 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 235
2. Couture 6'1" 229
3. Nogueira 6'3" 241
4. Sylvia 6'8" 261
5. Barnett 6'3" 258
6. Gonzaga 6'2" 252
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Werdum 6'4" 247
9. Kongo 6'4" 240
10. Cro Cop 6'2" 230

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 243

Spoiler: 2008 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Arlovski 6'4" 241
3. Barnett 6'3" 256
4. Mir 6'3" 251
5. Nogueira 6'3" 246
6. Lesnar 6'3" 265
7. Couture 6'1" 220
8. Sylvia 6'8" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Overeem 6'4" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 248

Spoiler: 2009 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Mir 6'3" 264
4. Nogueira 6'3" 241
5. Rogers 6'6" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 248
7. Arlovski 6'4" 244
8. Dos Santos 6'4" 236
9. Cain 6'1" 238
10. Carwin 6'2" 260

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 249

Spoiler: 2010 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 244
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Werdum 6'4" 240
4. Fedor 5'11" 229
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
6. Carwin 6'2" 265
7. Mir 6'3" 252
8. Overeem 6'4" 260
9. Nogueira 6'3" 233
10. Silva 6'4" 263

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2011 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
2. Cain 6'1" 249
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Lesnar 6'3" 265
6. Carwin 6'2" 254
7. Mir 6'3" 260
8. Nogueira 6'3" 240
9. Barnett 6'3" 261
10. Cormier 5'11" 247

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 252

Spoiler: 2012 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 240
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Cormier 5'11" 238
6. Mir 6'3" 261
7. Nogueira 6'3" 243
8. Silva 6'4" 265
9. Barnett 6'3" 248
10. Russow 6'2" 248

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2013 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
3. Werdum 6'4" 242
4. Cormier 5'11" 224
5. Silva 6'4" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 252
7. Mir 6'3" 248
8. Nogueira 6'3" 243
9. Browne 6'7" 242
10. Gonzaga 6'2" 257

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 245

Spoiler: 2014 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 242
3. Werdum 6'4" 232
4. Browne 6'7" 243
5. Hunt 5'10" 264
6. Miocic 6'4" 243
7. Arlovski 6'4" 248
8. Barnett 6'3" 252
9. Silva 6'4" 264
10. Nelson 6'0" 260

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2015 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Werdum 6'4" 236
2. Cain 6'1" 242
3. Overeem 6'4" 243
4. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
5. Miocic 6'4" 243
6. Arlovski 6'4" 238
7. Browne 6'7" 237
8. Rothwell 6'4" 265
9. Hunt 5'10" 265
10. Minakov 6'2" 251

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 246

Spoiler: 2016 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Werdum 6'4" 240
3. Cain 6'1" 243
4. Overeem 6'4" 249
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 241
6. Rothwell 6'4" 264
7. Barnett 6'3" 256
8. Arlovski 6'4" 238
9. Minakov 6'2" 258
10. Lewis 6'3" 265

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 250

virtually identical

 

[Final Say]

DC, a LHW, is about to fight for the UFC Heavyweight title.

And look at the post by Stevanchez just a few posts back ITT about size

D.C. is the only exception in a division where guys near his size were the rule. And I still suspect it's going to go very badly for him.