Has the HW division evolved as a whole (last 10 years)?

[DesiredUserName]

I can for sure say that somebody like Aleksander would have obliterated Struve, Travis Brown, Derrick Lewis and Roy Nelson lol

ya see. that's your perception at work. reality is A.E. didn't really have THAT many impressive wins. Struve had some plus moments too. Would Aleks have beaten Stipe? possibly on a good day like struve did if he fought him early on. Look I don't know who would win ... but I have no idea why you "can say for sure". In the long run, you fight 10 good guys and once and a while you beat a couple if you are decent. Dilute the talent in 2 orgs, you win more, add that to a couple of quality wins and look better. All I'm sayin' here.

 

[revoltub]

 

[Typrune Goatley]

ya see. that's your perception at work. reality is A.E. didn't really have THAT many impressive wins. Struve had some plus moments too. Would Aleks have beaten Stipe? possibly on a good day like struve did if he fought him early on. Look I don't know who would win ... but I have no idea why you "can say for sure". In the long run, you fight 10 good guys and once and a while you beat a couple if you are decent. Dilute the talent in 2 orgs, you win more, add that to a couple of quality wins and look better. All I'm sayin' here.

Talent wasn't really diluted though. Most of them were in PRIDE. Barnett, Randy, Ricco, Rizzo were the top UFC HWs in 2001 but they all went to PRIDE except for Randy.

Sylvia and Arlovski ruled from 2004 to 2007 in UFC while PRIDE had all the other top guys.

Look how competitive shit was back then:

- Randy and Rizzo have the FOTY in a very close decision in 2001

- Nog gets beaten up bad by Cro Cop in 2003 but comes back to win by sub in FOTY

- Nog has an extremely close fight with Sergei in 2004

- Fedor dominates Nog twice but both are decisions and Nog even rallies back late in their last fight

- Arlovski and Sylvia go 2-2 against each other

- Nog and Ricco have a very close fight in 2003 that comes down to judging

- Fedor beats CC in a decision in 2005

- Nog and Barnett go 1-1 in 2 very close fights in 2006

- Aleks and Sergei have a war where both get rocked in 2006

- Sergei vs Werdum was a very competitive fight in 2005

- Werdum and Reem have very close fight in PRIDE in 2006 before Werdum gets the sub win. Reem would win the next 2 fights.

- Nog and Werdum had a very competitive fight in 2006 that went to decision

-Cro Cop has 3 fights with Barnett from '04 to '06. 1 ends due to injury. The other two are competitive. Especially the 2nd one was very close

- Fedor had a competitive fight with Hunt in 2006 but it looked like he wasn't trying too hard

- Hunt and Cro Cop fought in PRIDE and went to decision in close fight

- Sergei and Reem went 1-1 against each other

- Werdum vs Arlovski was a boring but very close fight

-Nog almost got finished by Sylvia but came back to get the sub win

I am sure there were many other very competitive fights between top guys. Those are just off the top of my head. Every one was very skilled, had good defense and were able to hang with each other. Only guy blowing people out was Fedor (or Barnett subbing Hunt and Sergei, he just had great subs)

Compare that to now where you only got like 3 or 4 elite HWs and everyone below them have massive holes in their games and are easy pickings.

 

[Pakman]

That is an impressive list. Not disputing that. But for your consideration .... a lot depends upon perception. With 2 orgs going it is easier for more fighters to rack up winning records than it is in one. Kinda makes 'em all look more awesome. Logic would dictate (Spock here!) that some of those fighters would likely be at the lower tier of a single combined totem pole and perhaps looked upon as today's Struves, Nelsons, Kongos, Mitriones etc. But who can say for sure?

The thing is, Pride had so many HW’s, that some did look like that. Guys like Herring went from a top 5 HW in the world to maybe being in the top 10 and probably closer to like top 15’ish (where guys like the Nelson/Kongo etc are).

I’m not saying every fighter from generation A would beat this generation, but, collectively, as a whole, the division was much better a decade+ ago. There were many competitive fights for everyone. Now it’s basically the top couple and that’s it. The rest are trash. Or get hyped to no-end like Francis.

 

[Pakman]

Clearly you didn't watch cro cop fight in pride or UFC,he got no footwork like almost all the he back then,and a one shot fighter.
Stipe>fedor
Current werdum >big nog and Barnett
Jds > cro cop
Ngannou > Sergei and Sylvia
Current Overeem >> aleksander,herring
Cain > Coleman and randy
Derrick Lewis>AA back then
Curtis > randleman

Yeah you’re clearly just a hater. And it’s pretty obvious that you really did not watch any fights at all.

 

[DRMZ]

The heavyweight division will always look less refined and technically sound, primarily because the risk/reward ratio of techniques is far greater.

Simply but, if you get caught Clean by a 265lb fighter, there isn’t much margin for error.

 

[DayV]

the evolution of hw may not be as much as other smaller division but you could actually see the difference between the elite pride hw and today elite hw.cro cop is/was a prime example of evolution of mma when he fought in ufc,cro cop was always a one shot ko fighter with little to no footowork, it work for him back in pride but not in ufc or 10 years after.

Cro Cop just needed to fight in the ring and to be reasonably healthy.

He loses his kicking game if opponents can move around in big space and stay out of reach, he needs the ring and in there he is one of the best in the world and he can / especially in his prime, beat anyone.

 

[wilKO]

HW has gotten worse in the last 15 years.

 

[Stevanchez]

So, I just kinda want to put a little wrench in the whole, "HWs are so much bigger today" thing. Since 2004, the average height has been 6'3" and the average weight has fluctuated between 245lbs & 253lbs(except 2007 243lbs).

Current Top 10: Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Ngannou 6'4" 263
3. Overeem 6'4" 247
4. Werdum 6'4" 249
5. Cain 6'1" 242
6. Dos Santos 6'4" 245
7. Minakov 6'2" 260
8. Hunt 5'10" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Barnett 6'3" 256

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 253

Spoiler: 2001 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 226
2. Couture 6'1" 225
3. Coleman 6'1" 235
4. Herring 6'4" 254
5. Rizzo 6'1" 235
6. Barnett 6'3" 243
7. Sperry 6'2" 231
8. Fujita 6'1" 245
9. Igor 5'8" 228
10. Schilt 6'11" 261

Avg. Height= 6'2"
Avg. Weight= 238

Spoiler: 2002 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 234
2. Barnett 6'3" 246
3. Rodriguez 6'4" 243
4. Fedor 5'11" 228
5. Sapp 6'5" 350
6. Couture 6'1" 227
7. Herring 6'4" 250
8. McGee 6'10" 264
9. Igor 5'8" 235
10. Rizzo 6'1" 246

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 252(-Sapp=241)

Spoiler: 2003 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 236
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 225
4. Barnett 6'3" 250
5. Sylvia 6'8" 262
6. Sapp 6'5" 356
7. Rodriguez 6'4" 246
8. Herring 6'4" 254
9. McGee 6'10" 265
10. Igor 5'8" 220

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 255(-Sapp=243)

Spoiler: 2004 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 228
4. Mir 6'3" 253
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Arlovski 6'4" 240
7. Barnett 6'3" 250
8. Sergei 6'4" 240
9. Herring 6'4" 247
10. Rizzo 6'1" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2005 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Hunt 5'10" 275
4. Cro Cop 6'2" 220
5. Barnett 6'3" 250
6. Mir 6'3" 253
7. Arlovski 6'4" 241
8. Sylvia 6'8" 264
9. Sergei 6'4" 244
10. Werdum 6'4" 242

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 246

Spoiler: 2006 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 228
2. Nogueira 6'3" 242
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 221
4. Barnett 6'3" 258
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Hunt 5'10" 290
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Monson 5'10" 240
9. Vera 6'3" 231
10. Cruz 6'4" 236

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2007 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 235
2. Couture 6'1" 229
3. Nogueira 6'3" 241
4. Sylvia 6'8" 261
5. Barnett 6'3" 258
6. Gonzaga 6'2" 252
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Werdum 6'4" 247
9. Kongo 6'4" 240
10. Cro Cop 6'2" 230

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 243

Spoiler: 2008 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Arlovski 6'4" 241
3. Barnett 6'3" 256
4. Mir 6'3" 251
5. Nogueira 6'3" 246
6. Lesnar 6'3" 265
7. Couture 6'1" 220
8. Sylvia 6'8" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Overeem 6'4" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 248

Spoiler: 2009 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Mir 6'3" 264
4. Nogueira 6'3" 241
5. Rogers 6'6" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 248
7. Arlovski 6'4" 244
8. Dos Santos 6'4" 236
9. Cain 6'1" 238
10. Carwin 6'2" 260

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 249

Spoiler: 2010 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 244
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Werdum 6'4" 240
4. Fedor 5'11" 229
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
6. Carwin 6'2" 265
7. Mir 6'3" 252
8. Overeem 6'4" 260
9. Nogueira 6'3" 233
10. Silva 6'4" 263

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2011 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
2. Cain 6'1" 249
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Lesnar 6'3" 265
6. Carwin 6'2" 254
7. Mir 6'3" 260
8. Nogueira 6'3" 240
9. Barnett 6'3" 261
10. Cormier 5'11" 247

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 252

Spoiler: 2012 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 240
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Cormier 5'11" 238
6. Mir 6'3" 261
7. Nogueira 6'3" 243
8. Silva 6'4" 265
9. Barnett 6'3" 248
10. Russow 6'2" 248

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2013 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
3. Werdum 6'4" 242
4. Cormier 5'11" 224
5. Silva 6'4" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 252
7. Mir 6'3" 248
8. Nogueira 6'3" 243
9. Browne 6'7" 242
10. Gonzaga 6'2" 257

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 245

Spoiler: 2014 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 242
3. Werdum 6'4" 232
4. Browne 6'7" 243
5. Hunt 5'10" 264
6. Miocic 6'4" 243
7. Arlovski 6'4" 248
8. Barnett 6'3" 252
9. Silva 6'4" 264
10. Nelson 6'0" 260

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2015 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Werdum 6'4" 236
2. Cain 6'1" 242
3. Overeem 6'4" 243
4. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
5. Miocic 6'4" 243
6. Arlovski 6'4" 238
7. Browne 6'7" 237
8. Rothwell 6'4" 265
9. Hunt 5'10" 265
10. Minakov 6'2" 251

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 246

Spoiler: 2016 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Werdum 6'4" 240
3. Cain 6'1" 243
4. Overeem 6'4" 249
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 241
6. Rothwell 6'4" 264
7. Barnett 6'3" 256
8. Arlovski 6'4" 238
9. Minakov 6'2" 258
10. Lewis 6'3" 265

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 250

 

[Joshua8531]

I don't see how that is any different than Ngannou who is a massive dude who can only punch.

Sry might not have gotten the whole conversation.
Not to be an asshole but I do see a huge difference. A huge muscular HW striker (Ngannou) once he gasses hes fucked.

A huge muscular HW wrestler (Lesnar), his conditioning will be better not throwing but making the fight ugly and ground and pounding.
(Lesnar/Hunt)

Unless the wrestler is on queer street early, the longer the fight goes the percentages addressing the outcome would have to shift dramatically.

Basically Stipe vs Ngannou
Obviously decades of orienting muscles to different strengths.
(Striker grappling will wither quicker, Wrestler striking with wither quicker)

 

[Taric]

So, I just kinda want to put a little wrench in the whole, "HWs are so much bigger today" thing. Since 2004, the average height has been 6'3" and the average weight has fluctuated between 245lbs & 253lbs(except 2007 243lbs).

Current Top 10: Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Ngannou 6'4" 263
3. Overeem 6'4" 247
4. Werdum 6'4" 249
5. Cain 6'1" 242
6. Dos Santos 6'4" 245
7. Minakov 6'2" 260
8. Hunt 5'10" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Barnett 6'3" 256

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 253

Spoiler: 2001 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 226
2. Couture 6'1" 225
3. Coleman 6'1" 235
4. Herring 6'4" 254
5. Rizzo 6'1" 235
6. Barnett 6'3" 243
7. Sperry 6'2" 231
8. Fujita 6'1" 245
9. Igor 5'8" 228
10. Schilt 6'11" 261

Avg. Height= 6'2"
Avg. Weight= 238

Spoiler: 2002 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Nogueira 6'3" 234
2. Barnett 6'3" 246
3. Rodriguez 6'4" 243
4. Fedor 5'11" 228
5. Sapp 6'5" 350
6. Couture 6'1" 227
7. Herring 6'4" 250
8. McGee 6'10" 264
9. Igor 5'8" 235
10. Rizzo 6'1" 246

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 252(-Sapp=241)

Spoiler: 2003 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 236
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 225
4. Barnett 6'3" 250
5. Sylvia 6'8" 262
6. Sapp 6'5" 356
7. Rodriguez 6'4" 246
8. Herring 6'4" 254
9. McGee 6'10" 265
10. Igor 5'8" 220

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 255(-Sapp=243)

Spoiler: 2004 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 228
4. Mir 6'3" 253
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Arlovski 6'4" 240
7. Barnett 6'3" 250
8. Sergei 6'4" 240
9. Herring 6'4" 247
10. Rizzo 6'1" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2005 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 233
2. Nogueira 6'3" 240
3. Hunt 5'10" 275
4. Cro Cop 6'2" 220
5. Barnett 6'3" 250
6. Mir 6'3" 253
7. Arlovski 6'4" 241
8. Sylvia 6'8" 264
9. Sergei 6'4" 244
10. Werdum 6'4" 242

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 246

Spoiler: 2006 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 228
2. Nogueira 6'3" 242
3. Cro Cop 6'2" 221
4. Barnett 6'3" 258
5. Sylvia 6'8" 263
6. Hunt 5'10" 290
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Monson 5'10" 240
9. Vera 6'3" 231
10. Cruz 6'4" 236

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 245

Spoiler: 2007 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 235
2. Couture 6'1" 229
3. Nogueira 6'3" 241
4. Sylvia 6'8" 261
5. Barnett 6'3" 258
6. Gonzaga 6'2" 252
7. Arlovski 6'4" 240
8. Werdum 6'4" 247
9. Kongo 6'4" 240
10. Cro Cop 6'2" 230

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 243

Spoiler: 2008 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Arlovski 6'4" 241
3. Barnett 6'3" 256
4. Mir 6'3" 251
5. Nogueira 6'3" 246
6. Lesnar 6'3" 265
7. Couture 6'1" 220
8. Sylvia 6'8" 265
9. Rothwell 6'4" 264
10. Overeem 6'4" 243

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 248

Spoiler: 2009 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Fedor 5'11" 230
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Mir 6'3" 264
4. Nogueira 6'3" 241
5. Rogers 6'6" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 248
7. Arlovski 6'4" 244
8. Dos Santos 6'4" 236
9. Cain 6'1" 238
10. Carwin 6'2" 260

Avg. Height= 6'3"
Avg. Weight= 249

Spoiler: 2010 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 244
2. Lesnar 6'3" 265
3. Werdum 6'4" 240
4. Fedor 5'11" 229
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
6. Carwin 6'2" 265
7. Mir 6'3" 252
8. Overeem 6'4" 260
9. Nogueira 6'3" 233
10. Silva 6'4" 263

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2011 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
2. Cain 6'1" 249
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Lesnar 6'3" 265
6. Carwin 6'2" 254
7. Mir 6'3" 260
8. Nogueira 6'3" 240
9. Barnett 6'3" 261
10. Cormier 5'11" 247

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 252

Spoiler: 2012 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 240
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
3. Overeem 6'4" 263
4. Werdum 6'4" 246
5. Cormier 5'11" 238
6. Mir 6'3" 261
7. Nogueira 6'3" 243
8. Silva 6'4" 265
9. Barnett 6'3" 248
10. Russow 6'2" 248

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2013 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 240
3. Werdum 6'4" 242
4. Cormier 5'11" 224
5. Silva 6'4" 264
6. Barnett 6'3" 252
7. Mir 6'3" 248
8. Nogueira 6'3" 243
9. Browne 6'7" 242
10. Gonzaga 6'2" 257

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 245

Spoiler: 2014 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Cain 6'1" 241
2. Dos Santos 6'4" 242
3. Werdum 6'4" 232
4. Browne 6'7" 243
5. Hunt 5'10" 264
6. Miocic 6'4" 243
7. Arlovski 6'4" 248
8. Barnett 6'3" 252
9. Silva 6'4" 264
10. Nelson 6'0" 260

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 249

Spoiler: 2015 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Werdum 6'4" 236
2. Cain 6'1" 242
3. Overeem 6'4" 243
4. Dos Santos 6'4" 239
5. Miocic 6'4" 243
6. Arlovski 6'4" 238
7. Browne 6'7" 237
8. Rothwell 6'4" 265
9. Hunt 5'10" 265
10. Minakov 6'2" 251

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 246

Spoiler: 2016 Top 10:

Rankings
1. Miocic 6'4" 246
2. Werdum 6'4" 240
3. Cain 6'1" 243
4. Overeem 6'4" 249
5. Dos Santos 6'4" 241
6. Rothwell 6'4" 264
7. Barnett 6'3" 256
8. Arlovski 6'4" 238
9. Minakov 6'2" 258
10. Lewis 6'3" 265

Avg. Height: 6'3"
Avg. Weight: 250

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.

Wanderlei actually outweighed him in that fight.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

No…it has ALWAYS been a trash division. Big athletic guys play in the nfl or nba…

Yeah, cause all of the big athletic Eastern European fighters are playing in the NFL/NBA... right?

 

[PalmStrike]

definitely, yeah. werdum against cain was the best werdum we've ever seen. stipe is obviously one of the greatest and most skilled heavyweight athletes mma has ever seen. overeem's career has always been a roller coaster. cain's injuries forced him out but he symbolizes evolution. the lower level guys are coming in with higher credentials. blaydes, volkov and lewis wouldve been competitive at any point in heavywieght mma.


hes fighting a middleweight in this gif, though. imagine any of the current top heavyweights getting their hands on a middleweight today. stipe v maldonado is a decent example.

Im thinking that was the point though.

Mirko was quicker than Wand, a middleweight.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

Using a gif of a very technical striker outmanuevering a wild brawler who's carrying 60lbs of unnecessary Japanese vitamin induced muscle in an attempt to fight at HW isn't really the most honest example.

60 lbs of unnecessary weight?

 

[Final Say]

Im thinking that was the point though.

Mirko was quicker than Wand, a middleweight.

View attachment 336925

And stipe was faster than Maldonado.

Wanderlei actually outweighed him in that fight.

Which, again, speaks to the evolution of the sport and division.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

And stipe was faster than Maldonado.

Which, again, speaks to the evolution of the sport and division.

uhh.. how?

 

[Final Say]

uhh.. how?

Well, at the most base level, there has been an increase in the size of heavyweights. There isn't a single top five heavyweight who could make 205. Also, a top level heavyweight today versus a middleweight would be a complete squash match, just like Stipe v Maldonado. I know fabio isn't a MW but he could've made it for sure. They weren't even sure back then if Wanderlei v Crocop was a mismatch

 

[JBJISGOAT]

Yeah, cause all of the big athletic Eastern European fighters are playing in the NFL/NBA... right?

They sure as hell aren’t in the ufc ya dolt.

 

[PEDS Help me Post]

Well, at the most base level, there has been an increase in the size of heavyweights. There isn't a single top five heavyweight who could make 205. Also, a top level heavyweight today versus a middleweight would be a complete squash match, just like Stipe v Maldonado. I know fabio isn't a MW but he could've made it for sure. They weren't even sure back then if Wanderlei v Crocop was a mismatch

... but they're not really any bigger as one poster already just proved less than a page ago in this thread. HWs were bigger in 2009 than they are now.

Also, bigger doesn't mean better anyway. Almost every #1 for the last 15 years has been around 240 lbs. Almost every big HW that's come along and been touted as this "New Breed" was destroyed by smaller, faster HWs.

Why are you bringing up Maldonado? He's not a middleweight nor is he a high-level fighter. Rumble would do the same thing to him that Stipe did and Rumble is a LHW.