Has MMA devolved if Khabib is considered p4p best?

[capnlarge]

Khabib is more well-rounded than you give him credit for. Take Chael Sonnen for example, similarly dominant wrestling game but got subbed a bunch of times, whereas Khabib has awesome sub defense and offense.

Sonnen would have been a champion if his overall grappling game was even close to Khabib's

 

[smart.feller]

If you're waiting for a guy that is relentless in wrestling like Chael, subs people like Maia, and strikes land Anderson Silva...you're going to be waiting a while.

 

[Taric]

Strikers became 'better' when UFC fired the likes of Phil Davis, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Yushin Okami, Jared Rosholt, and Ryan Bader for no other reason than they were boring -- as well as stopped hiring anyone who was like them.

Hard to counter this argument to be honest.

 

[Steve Fox]

Has football devolved because Messi was/is considered the best of the last decade and mainly plays with his left foot? No.

 

[kalabula]

Strikers became 'better' when UFC fired the likes of Phil Davis, Jon Fitch, Jake Shields, Yushin Okami, Jared Rosholt, and Ryan Bader for no other reason than they were boring -- as well as stopped hiring anyone who was like them.

An interesting point. Almost like natural selection had been interfered with causing an unnatural “ability” to evolve.

 

[Reaper_mma_MKII]

I don't feel like it has, I feel his p4p consideration is just based off of his straight up dominance over his opponents. Barboza and Porier for example look like contenders/killers in most of their fights until they fight Khabib who beats them in a fashion that many of us never saw them or even thought they could be beat in.

Kind of like early career Jon Jones (and his initial title run), killers, former champions/title challengers who at the time were very much live dogs in any other fight, Jones just destroys them in such dominant fashion and makes it look so easy.

Just my take on this.

 

[D Train]

It’s probably been said, but Jones is very well rounded. As are GSP and Silva. Going back even further, prime BJ was well rounded. While not a great striker, Hughes was competent standing but well versed in both wresting and BJJ (probably similar to Khabib).

 

[Juventud]

Who considers Khabib the p4p best? I certainly don't. Jones, Whittaker & even Cejudo are ahead of him until he fights Tony.

 

[DrHouse]

The sport always self-adjusts, it always has. There have been periods when wrestlers take over, then strikers learn to defend takedowns and use their striking, then wrestlers learn to strike well enough to get inside on strikers and utilise their takedowns, rinse and repeat.

Khabib is on that cycle where his striking is good enough that he can handle himself until he gets an opportunity for a takedown, it just also happens that he's one of the best wrestlers ever in the sport and has maybe the best top control we've ever seen. Until he loses a step, I don't see anyone who can close the gap in wrestling enough to stop takedowns and no one good enough to consistently stand back up. He'll only lose if he gets caught or loses a step, there is no one on the horizon at LW that would beat him in his current state a majority of the time. He's an anomaly in that regard, it says nothing about the state of the sport.

 

[Not A Real Fan]

The randy couture or khabib style rooted in good control and just enough striking proficiency to open up for takedowns seems to be the best combination.

If this is what works at the highest level then by definition it is not de-evolution. Quite the contrary. It is the very best and most evolved style of fighting. The very first UFCs showed us what worked and did not work. Every event since UFC 1 from every promotion has fine tuned what style this is. Think of the cage as a laboratory where they run tests all the time.

You would think the p4p best would be well versed everywhere.

Why be well versed in anything else if it does not really add much? I'm sure you don't believe Knabib should become proficient in taekwondo? Because it's long been established that TKD sucks.

Sure some specialists popped up here and there, like Demian Maia, but his inability to take down top competition somewhat exposed his weakness.

I love jiu jitsu. I really do. But if it does not evolve for MMA then it deserves to become less prominent.

 

[PitDoggMMA]

It appears that the pendulum has swung once again. There was a time where pure BJJ reigned supreme and dominated. As MMA evolved, strikers became better grapplers and grapplers became better strikers.

GSP represented a hybrid breed that blended both well and it seemed that this was the prototype that the sport was producing.

Sure some specialists popped up here and there, like Demian Maia, but his inability to take down top competition somewhat exposed his weakness.

The randy couture or khabib style rooted in good control and just enough striking proficiency to open up for takedowns seems to be the best combination.

You would think the p4p best would be well versed everywhere.

Thoughts?

Have you ever heard of the term, "Jack of All Trades, Master of None?"

First of all, Khabib has not shown you everything.

Secondly, if anything, Khabib has proven that utilizing only the most-effective control techniques is all that's required.

I forget who it was that said, "I fear a man who has mastered only a few techniques, more than a man who has halfheartedly mastered many."

Or, to borrow from another quote, "A man who has one watch knows what time it is; while a man with 'many watches' is never sure."

 

[Oliver Clothesoff]

It's not just Khabib. I've seen a shift towards more wrestling and control time across the board in the last year or two.

 

[K-Bag]

Khabib is actually pretty well rounded now.

 

[PitDoggMMA]

If the idea is to win, then perhaps what Khabib is doing (with a 28-0 record, not losing a single round) is getting rid of the BS that doesn't work ... and concentrating his attention on what does work.

Trimming the chaff, as it were…

 

[helltoupee]

Jones last three opponents have a combined record of 71-27, while Khabibs last three opponents have a record of 60-15. Khabibs mentioned opponents also include a former light- and featherweight champion with Conor McGregor.
Regarding Poirer and Santos: Poirier is now 25-6 while Santos is 21-7. Poirier also has beaten names like Gaethje, Holloway and Alvarez, while the best opponents on Santos' resume are probably Blachowicz and Smith.
I like both, but i think Poirier is definitely better than Santos.

Let's also not forget that the talent pool at LW is much deeper.

A-level athletes who are 6'2" 200lb in general are not gravitating towards martial arts, and instead get gobbled up by the more lucrative traditional ball sports. That means that divisions like MW, LHW, and HW are all just getting the leftovers of guys who weren't good enough to make it in professional baseball, basketball, football, etc. Of course there are exceptions, but I'm talking generally.

At lightweight and below, you have generally smaller guys who just aren't physically big enough to compete at the pro level in traditional sports, so they have increasingly fewer options. Jose Aldo is the perfect example. If he was a bit bigger, he probably would've been a professional soccer player, but he was too small so he pursued fighting.

 

[Iron Nick]

Let's also not forget that the talent pool at LW is much deeper.

A-level athletes who are 6'2" 200lb in general are not gravitating towards martial arts, and instead get gobbled up by the more lucrative traditional ball sports. That means that divisions like MW, LHW, and HW are all just getting the leftovers of guys who weren't good enough to make it in professional baseball, basketball, football, etc. Of course there are exceptions, but I'm talking generally.

At lightweight and below, you have generally smaller guys who just aren't physically big enough to compete at the pro level in traditional sports, so they have increasingly fewer options. Jose Aldo is the perfect example. If he was a bit bigger, he probably would've been a professional soccer player, but he was too small so he pursued fighting.

Jose Aldo is pretty much the exact size as Lionel Messi, but that's the only thing i have to disagree with you here (also: Aldo might be a great fighter, but that doesn't mean he would've been a pro-soccer player; i don't know how good he was, but if you haven't got the talent, you could work as hard as you want and still not make it pro, soccer is super dependent on talent).
Yeah, i agree a 100% with you on the talent-pool thing, i've mentioned it to the guy i answered in the post you've quoted already in an earlier post - light-weight is pretty much the divison with average sized people - so yup, the pool of talent is vast there. For that reason alone it's insane to have a really good record at that divison in MMA/the UFC.

 

[helltoupee]

Jose Aldo is pretty much the exact size as Lionel Messi, but that's the only thing i have to disagree with you here (also: Aldo might be a great fighter, but that doesn't mean he would've been a pro-soccer player; i don't know how good he was, but if you haven't got the talent, you could work as hard as you want and still not make it pro, soccer is super dependent on talent).
Yeah, i agree a 100% with you on the talent-pool thing, i've mentioned it to the guy i answered in the post you've quoted already in an earlier post - light-weight is pretty much the divison with average sized people - so yup, the pool of talent is vast there. For that reason alone it's insane to have a really good record at that divison in MMA/the UFC.

Ya, I'm sure there are professional soccer players Aldo's size and even smaller, but they are the exception rather than the rule. As to whether or not he could have - I may be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read that he actually played for some sort of minor league team and was told he was athletically gifted enough in a technical sense to be pro, but as you know at the highest levels, when you are at a physical disadvantage, you not only have to be good enough just to be a pro, you have to be exceptional and obviously that wasn't him.

Agree with everything else you mentioned.

 

[Protagoras]

Khabibs grappling is just far better than anyone else we've ever seen in MMA history. He also has great distance control, solid jab, and some power to keep opponents honest. He really is as he once said, the Floyd Mayweather of MMA. Pure dominance and takes barely any damage

Recency bias in MMA is off the fucking charts. This is evidenced by posts such as the above.

I’m not really sure there’s anything more ridiculous than saying something like, “x fighter has the best grappling in MMA so far” when you consider the incredible number of incredible grapplers we’ve seen in MMA.

Khabib might be better at applying his grappling in the context of his style of fight, but are we really going to say that Khabib’s grappling (even in MMA) is superior to a guy like Maia’s?

Maia has essentially neutralized every opponent he’s gotten to the mat, no matter how skilled they are in grappling. The only time he hasn’t been able to neutralize an opponent is when he wasn’t able to take them down, which has really only become a problem recently. Considering he’s like 40 years old I think we can cut him slack on a diminished ability to take down his opponents.

Besides Maia you have GSP, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Jon Jones, and on and on.

I get that Khabib is on a great run, but if you put his skills in context with those from the past, you’ll realize that he’s on a high level but not necessarily the “best ever” when it comes to grappling.

Khabib is the best at fighting the way Khabib likes to fight—the way puts the pieces together and implements them.

When it comes to the individual disciplines themselves, it’s pretty ridiculous to throw out such hyperbole.

 

[old school 2]

Who considers Khabib the p4p best? I certainly don't. Jones, Whittaker & even Cejudo are ahead of him until he fights Tony.

Actually he is #2 to Jones according to most publications and I tend agree.

 

[old school 2]

Recency bias in MMA is off the fucking charts. This is evidenced by posts such as the above.

I’m not really sure there’s anything more ridiculous than saying something like, “x fighter has the best grappling in MMA so far” when you consider the incredible number of incredible grapplers we’ve seen in MMA.

Khabib might be better at applying his grappling in the context of his style of fight, but are we really going to say that Khabib’s grappling (even in MMA) is superior to a guy like Maia’s?

Maia has essentially neutralized every opponent he’s gotten to the mat, no matter how skilled they are in grappling. The only time he hasn’t been able to neutralize an opponent is when he wasn’t able to take them down, which has really only become a problem recently. Considering he’s like 40 years old I think we can cut him slack on a diminished ability to take down his opponents.

Besides Maia you have GSP, Matt Hughes, BJ Penn, Jon Jones, and on and on.

I get that Khabib is on a great run, but if you put his skills in context with those from the past, you’ll realize that he’s on a high level but not necessarily the “best ever” when it comes to grappling.

Khabib is the best at fighting the way Khabib likes to fight—the way puts the pieces together and implements them.

When it comes to the individual disciplines themselves, it’s pretty ridiculous to throw out such hyperbole.

Khabib’s grappling in MMA is greater than Maia’s because he always gets the TD, if Maia doesn’t.... he is screwed. Maia occasionally loses, Khabib never does.