Has anyone changed their mind about Islamic immigration? Or do you still want Islamic refugees?

[Vagitarian]

Sherdog gonna Sherdog. Extremes are rarely good things.

I think it's inevitable, but on what time scale? Will it happen before one of these wacko groups flies more planes into our buildings? Before they can get their hands on nuclear material like a dirty bomb? These are the questions we need to analyze.

I agree. Secularism is the key. It's just a tall order for the power elites, as much of their authority comes from religion. It's kind of like money in politics in the US. We can all agree that it's bad, but how do you convince those with the power to give it up? How do you convince everyone else to do something about it?

I like to call what you described as a "working peace." We all understand that this is a business relationship, and that's fine. When we can all agree that the incentives are there for us to be friends and not enemies, we will have something worthwhile. If it's based on feelings, then it's not a stable peace. Pragmatism for the win!

I'll disagree with you slightly about the process to get there in the Middle East. I think the question isn't about how we can deescalate for our own purposes, but how can we deescalate while other world powers do as well? The Chinese are setting up corporate camp in the region, and the Russians want it as a military buffer. How can we change the game so that they want to back out? I think if it were just about the Muslims and us, we would be out yesterday. It's about creating less tension from world powers while supporting indigenous groups that want to kill terrorists. That's also why I love the Kurds. They love shooting members of ISIS and Al-Qaeda. Backing them is a great idea, and if the Turks were in favor of a Kurdistan, I think it would have happened by now.

Honestly, I'm gonna say right now, I have no idea but I fear the worst sometimes. I don't want another witch hunt in iraq for wmds again but if one of those extremists gets anything close to a nuclear weapon, they will not fear unleashing it. I hope even they have some level of foresight that unleashing a nuke on us will cause us to retaliate but they probably might think we wont fire back nuclear weapons. But even if we do, a whole town or city would be wiped out with radiation left behind for anyone near by all because we didn't stop that extremist. and who do we attack? this is an enemy without a formal capital or base. Do we just nuke the entire middle east? As uneducated as they are, they dont all deserve to die because an ISIS leader got bold and doesnt have any brains.

I can only hope the people begin to see islam for the sham it is, or at least abandon the heinous principles and just keep the praying or w/e, i dont really care. Just leave the beheading of infidels, the jihad, as relics of the past. christians today can leave behind stoning, inquisitions, and crusades as relics of the past. Muslims need to do the same. Thats going to require some strong secularism so they can finally stop islam from permeating all aspects of their life

And right I hadn't thought of the other powers. I can only think that honest and straight forward communication of our interests with theirs, some compromises and overall maintaining the integrity of the middle east (what little they have) no foreign force is ever going to pacify the middle east like the arabs themselves. The Turks tried, the British, French, and even us. We all failed or failing.

In terms of interests, Russia for example has had their own terrorist attacks in the south, and theyre terrorists are home grown muslims so they want to keep that area near their border free of any islamic extremism that could creep into their borders. I have heard how these ethnic groups, in a desperate attempt at maintaining their cultural identity, identify with islamic extremism. When I spoke to a Muslim like that in Russian, I wished my russian was good enough to tell him how fucked up he is inside when he said the attacks on the french cartoonists was justified.

And as for Turkey, they trigger me so much. I always cite them as muslims who can be secular, they drink, half of them dont even pray, but theyre interests are aligning them with ISIS. That just reinforces this idea that turks are no better than arabs.

 

[SlicerDM]

Honestly, I'm gonna say right now, I have no idea but I fear the worst sometimes. I don't want another witch hunt in iraq for wmds again but if one of those extremists gets anything close to a nuclear weapon, they will not fear unleashing it. I hope even they have some level of foresight that unleashing a nuke on us will cause us to retaliate but they probably might think we wont fire back nuclear weapons. But even if we do, a whole town or city would be wiped out with radiation left behind for anyone near by all because we didn't stop that extremist. and who do we attack? this is an enemy without a formal capital or base. Do we just nuke the entire middle east? As uneducated as they are, they dont all deserve to die because an ISIS leader got bold and doesnt have any brains.

I can only hope the people begin to see islam for the sham it is, or at least abandon the heinous principles and just keep the praying or w/e, i dont really care. Just leave the beheading of infidels, the jihad, as relics of the past. christians today can leave behind stoning, inquisitions, and crusades as relics of the past. Muslims need to do the same. Thats going to require some strong secularism so they can finally stop islam from permeating all aspects of their life

And right I hadn't thought of the other powers. I can only think that honest and straight forward communication of our interests with theirs, some compromises and overall maintaining the integrity of the middle east (what little they have) no foreign force is ever going to pacify the middle east like the arabs themselves. The Turks tried, the British, French, and even us. We all failed or failing.

In terms of interests, Russia for example has had their own terrorist attacks in the south, and theyre terrorists are home grown muslims so they want to keep that area near their border free of any islamic extremism that could creep into their borders. I have heard how these ethnic groups, in a desperate attempt at maintaining their cultural identity, identify with islamic extremism. When I spoke to a Muslim like that in Russian, I wished my russian was good enough to tell him how fucked up he is inside when he said the attacks on the french cartoonists was justified.

And as for Turkey, they trigger me so much. I always cite them as muslims who can be secular, they drink, half of them dont even pray, but theyre interests are aligning them with ISIS. That just reinforces this idea that turks are no better than arabs.

That's the problem. If you plan on waiting for Muslims to finally realize Islam is a sham you will be waiting around for hundreds of years.

You have to educate, provide and pull them away from it. They won't just realize without someone or something pushing them to do it.

 

[Vagitarian]

That's the problem. If you plan on waiting for Muslims to finally realize Islam is a sham you will be waiting around for hundreds of years.

You have to educate, provide and pull them away from it. They won't just realize without someone or something pushing them to do it.

But see thats the thing, Arabs were on the cusp of that before shit went down. Turks are already there practically besides Erdogan being an idiot.

Thats the kind of cultural imperialism that pushes them away. The Arab people will listen to their fellow muslims before some loud mouthed american who insults them and calls them savages. We just need more Nassers, Mohammad Mosaddeghs, secular leaders.

 

[sub_thug]

Honestly, I'm gonna say right now, I have no idea but I fear the worst sometimes. I don't want another witch hunt in iraq for wmds again but if one of those extremists gets anything close to a nuclear weapon, they will not fear unleashing it. I hope even they have some level of foresight that unleashing a nuke on us will cause us to retaliate but they probably might think we wont fire back nuclear weapons. But even if we do, a whole town or city would be wiped out with radiation left behind for anyone near by all because we didn't stop that extremist. and who do we attack? this is an enemy without a formal capital or base. Do we just nuke the entire middle east? As uneducated as they are, they dont all deserve to die because an ISIS leader got bold and doesnt have any brains.

I can only hope the people begin to see islam for the sham it is, or at least abandon the heinous principles and just keep the praying or w/e, i dont really care. Just leave the beheading of infidels, the jihad, as relics of the past. christians today can leave behind stoning, inquisitions, and crusades as relics of the past. Muslims need to do the same. Thats going to require some strong secularism so they can finally stop islam from permeating all aspects of their life

And right I hadn't thought of the other powers. I can only think that honest and straight forward communication of our interests with theirs, some compromises and overall maintaining the integrity of the middle east (what little they have) no foreign force is ever going to pacify the middle east like the arabs themselves. The Turks tried, the British, French, and even us. We all failed or failing.

In terms of interests, Russia for example has had their own terrorist attacks in the south, and theyre terrorists are home grown muslims so they want to keep that area near their border free of any islamic extremism that could creep into their borders. I have heard how these ethnic groups, in a desperate attempt at maintaining their cultural identity, identify with islamic extremism. When I spoke to a Muslim like that in Russian, I wished my russian was good enough to tell him how fucked up he is inside when he said the attacks on the french cartoonists was justified.

And as for Turkey, they trigger me so much. I always cite them as muslims who can be secular, they drink, half of them dont even pray, but theyre interests are aligning them with ISIS. That just reinforces this idea that turks are no better than arabs.

I don't want a witch hunt as well, but a nuclear Iran scares the crap out of me. I'm already terrified of a nuclear Pakistan. I don't know if that means leveling Syria just to make sure that none of them carry out an attack, as we don't really have a sense of proportionality when dealing with non-state actors. It's one thing to keep killing legitimate terrorists as they pop up, but that's like busting dope dealers. You take one down, and another will pop up in his place. How much are we willing to invest in terms of time, troops. and money to keep going down this rabbit hole?

I agree. This is the difference between religious Islam and political Islam. Unfortunately, Muslims can't seem to make a distinction. And it's costing them and us a lot.

We're failing at pacification, but that doesn't mean that people aren't making lots of money. The French have always been deep in the oil business with Iraq and Iran. We have always had ties to the Saudis and been a customer of Saudi Aramco. The Chinese are setting up businesses all over the region, and they are getting more involved by the day. I just don't see how you are going to get everyone to agree to stop making money so that the Arabs have time to figure things out for themselves. That just seems like wishful thinking, so we need to find out ways to incentive cultural development. Maybe trade is the best way to inject factors that lead towards cultural development? It may be a question not of blocking things out but ensuring the right things come in.

Russia is a totally different animal. They have some serious issues with certain ethnicities. The reason that the Russians flagged and warned the FBI about the Boston Bombers were actually part of a larger information campaign against the Chechen rebels. There is some real hostility there, and let's not forget about the Russian involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980's. The Muslims around their borders are particularly shitty, so it's hard to pick a good guy there.

No, the Turks are indeed some shitheads. They are some serious murderers and thugs, just like the rest of the Arab world. The only difference is that they are part of the EU and have (kind of) pledged to be one of the good guys. It's lip service in my opinion, but it's better than the Saudis who smile to your face and stab you in the back by financing terrorists and creating terror camps within their borders. When 16 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals, and the leader of Al-Qaeda was a Saudi national, you start to paint a clear picture of what kind of mentality is prevalent there.

 

[sub_thug]

But see thats the thing, Arabs were on the cusp of that before shit went down. Turks are already there practically besides Erdogan being an idiot.

Thats the kind of cultural imperialism that pushes them away. The Arab people will listen to their fellow muslims before some loud mouthed american who insults them and calls them savages. We just need more Nassers, Mohammad Mosaddeghs, secular leaders.

Part of the problem is that Arabs seem to believe that they are superior to the rest of the world. This whole "Arab brother" thing came up a lot. They look down on Whitey for whatever reason, and they just don't respect us. I guess that's fine in a way because we clearly don't respect them either, but at least when we do it, it's because we are the world's hegemon. When they do it, it's like the dumb kid in the back of the class hating everyone else because he thinks everyone else is too stupid to "get him."

 

[Vagitarian]

I don't want a witch hunt as well, but a nuclear Iran scares the crap out of me. I'm already terrified of a nuclear Pakistan. I don't know if that means leveling Syria just to make sure that none of them carry out an attack, as we don't really have a sense of proportionality when dealing with non-state actors. It's one thing to keep killing legitimate terrorists as they pop up, but that's like busting dope dealers. You take one down, and another will pop up in his place. How much are we willing to invest in terms of time, troops. and money to keep going down this rabbit hole?

I agree. This is the difference between religious Islam and political Islam. Unfortunately, Muslims can't seem to make a distinction. And it's costing them and us a lot.

We're failing at pacification, but that doesn't mean that people aren't making lots of money. The French have always been deep in the oil business with Iraq and Iran. We have always had ties to the Saudis and been a customer of Saudi Aramco. The Chinese are setting up businesses all over the region, and they are getting more involved by the day. I just don't see how you are going to get everyone to agree to stop making money so that the Arabs have time to figure things out for themselves. That just seems like wishful thinking, so we need to find out ways to incentive cultural development. Maybe trade is the best way to inject factors that lead towards cultural development? It may be a question not of blocking things out but ensuring the right things come in.

Russia is a totally different animal. They have some serious issues with certain ethnicities. The reason that the Russians flagged and warned the FBI about the Boston Bombers were actually part of a larger information campaign against the Chechen rebels. There is some real hostility there, and let's not forget about the Russian involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980's. The Muslims around their borders are particularly shitty, so it's hard to pick a good guy there.

No, the Turks are indeed some shitheads. They are some serious murderers and thugs, just like the rest of the Arab world. The only difference is that they are part of the EU and have (kind of) pledged to be one of the good guys. It's lip service in my opinion, but it's better than the Saudis who smile to your face and stab you in the back by financing terrorists and creating terror camps within their borders. When 16 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals, and the leader of Al-Qaeda was a Saudi national, you start to paint a clear picture of what kind of mentality is prevalent there.

Its unfortunate you meet those turks, sounds like the Turks living in more Eastern Turkey where secularism hasnt quite hit their head. I can only make the conjecture because I saw nothing like thugs and murderers when I was in Istanbul or Antalya. Their homicide rate is slightly higher than the U.S for what its worth.

And yeah I cant think of a way to get Western powers from backing off. As much as I hate it, people would rather keep the middle east as a hell hole to make more money, us included (like removing Mosadegh).

Russia though,seems, to me anyway, to want a similar situation in the middle east that they have with central asia or ukraine, completely under their control despite being independent nations.

The Saudis are just a scourge on the Earth. So much pull and power and riches and it has to be concentrated in probably the most ass backwards country in the middle east.

Part of the problem is that Arabs seem to believe that they are superior to the rest of the world. This whole "Arab brother" thing came up a lot. They look down on Whitey for whatever reason, and they just don't respect us. I guess that's fine in a way because we clearly don't respect them either, but at least when we do it, it's because we are the world's hegemon. When they do it, it's like the dumb kid in the back of the class hating everyone else because he thinks everyone else is too stupid to "get him."

When you believe that you are destined to go to some imaginary retirement island and anyone who disagrees with your way of life suffers in hell for eternity, it goes to your head. Plus no amount of american accomplishments should ever justify any individual american to feel superior in anyway. Also, believe it isnt about race, they hate me too probably.

 

[sub_thug]

Its unfortunate you meet those turks, sounds like the Turks living in more Eastern Turkey where secularism hasnt quite hit their head. I can only make the conjecture because I saw nothing like thugs and murderers when I was in Istanbul or Antalya. Their homicide rate is slightly higher than the U.S for what its worth.

And yeah I cant think of a way to get Western powers from backing off. As much as I hate it, people would rather keep the middle east as a hell hole to make more money, us included (like removing Mosadegh).

Russia though,seems, to me anyway, to want a similar situation in the middle east that they have with central asia or ukraine, completely under their control despite being independent nations.

The Saudis are just a scourge on the Earth. So much pull and power and riches and it has to be concentrated in probably the most ass backwards country in the middle east.

When you believe that you are destined to go to some imaginary retirement island and anyone who disagrees with your way of life suffers in hell for eternity, it goes to your head. Plus no amount of american accomplishments should ever justify any individual american to feel superior in anyway. Also, believe it isnt about race, they hate me too probably.

So this is something worth talking about. We need to stop viewing these people by what country they live in. As you are alluding to, some of these people with whom they share borders with are nothing like the rest of the people that live there. Those borders are artificial constructs that are largely historical remnants of the British. So yeah, the people that I met on one side of Turkey were nothing like the ones I met on the other side.

Making money makes sense. We just need to need to foster an environment that promotes their own growth as well. When they start believing that they can make a little money and get ahead, we will see some real progress.

Yes, that sounds accurate. Most of the world wants influence. Russians want control. There's a difference for sure.

They're assholes for sure. Scourge seems a bit strong. I think they can be influenced in the appropriate way. I am a big fan of the idea of doing some black ops to kill a prince or two of theirs. Something that lets them know to get in line or we will use their brain matter as wall paper. I can think of a few less kinetic and more interesting ways to pull off such a feat without actually committing an act of war as well, but I don't think that's good information to put on an unclassified network. The point is that I want the royal family to feel a little less invincible and get a cold shiver up their spines. And the cost is one of thousands of Saudi princes, so who cares if one person dies?

An Iraqi once told me that he lived in the birthplace of all civilization (the Fertile Crescent), and he was very proud of that. Maybe the religion thing is part of it. And America has some pretty awesome accomplishments, so it's not like we have nothing to be proud of in our place in the world.

 

[Vagitarian]

So this is something worth talking about. We need to stop viewing these people by what country they live in. As you are alluding to, some of these people with whom they share borders with are nothing like the rest of the people that live there. Those borders are artificial constructs that are largely historical remnants of the British. So yeah, the people that I met on one side of Turkey were nothing like the ones I met on the other side.

Making money makes sense. We just need to need to foster an environment that promotes their own growth as well. When they start believing that they can make a little money and get ahead, we will see some real progress.

Yes, that sounds accurate. Most of the world wants influence. Russians want control. There's a difference for sure.

They're assholes for sure. Scourge seems a bit strong. I think they can be influenced in the appropriate way. I am a big fan of the idea of doing some black ops to kill a prince or two of theirs. Something that lets them know to get in line or we will use their brain matter as wall paper. I can think of a few less kinetic and more interesting ways to pull off such a feat without actually committing an act of war as well, but I don't think that's good information to put on an unclassified network. The point is that I want the royal family to feel a little less invincible and get a cold shiver up their spines. And the cost is one of thousands of Saudi princes, so who cares if one person dies?

An Iraqi once told me that he lived in the birthplace of all civilization (the Fertile Crescent), and he was very proud of that. Maybe the religion thing is part of it. And America has some pretty awesome accomplishments, so it's not like we have nothing to be proud of in our place in the world.

You're right about the borders. The issue with Turkey though, is those in the east still see themselves as turks, and the strong nationalism of turks, which displaced islamism, makes the western turks claim the Eastern citizens as Turkish as well, and with turkeys emphasis on their own people, they rather put the murderous and uneducated eastern turks over any ethnic groups, especially kurds. Giving those people up would be seen as a betrayal so they do their hardest to keep all the turks associated so it becomes difficult for anyone not familiar with the region to see them as different groups.

See the issue I kind of see with trying to instill fear into Saudi royal families is they can't seem to register that there is a formidable force outside of them that can level that sandbox they call a country. So all our efforts might do is just further alienate Arabs and you bet your ass the Muslim propaganda will be out in full force. It's bad enough we're intervening in their country, but add some Muslim propaganda and there's calls for more jihad. Plus, I am just of the opinion that you need to let Arabs have their sovereignty, for better or for worse, while clearly telling them the consequences of getting worse. When they think they have no choice in their government cuz America makes the choice for them, they get angry and irrational. Muslim extremists just need that and a moving speech and the sheep line up to follow. That's why I hate Saudi Arabia so much. Other Arab countries have had or are gearing towards secular movements. I'm not familiar with Saudi Arabian history but I doubt I could find significant pushes towards secularism.

And of course we should be proud to be Americans, own up to all the good and all the bad we did. My point was it doesn't make us inherently superior to anyone. We're still human beings and the likely hood of any one American contributing significantly to any one achievement of America is quite unlikely. But Americans I've noticed like to strut around and feel important. We're not. We're human beings like everyone else. It is our individual actions that makes us great.

 

[sub_thug]

You're right about the borders. The issue with Turkey though, is those in the east still see themselves as turks, and the strong nationalism of turks, which displaced islamism, makes the western turks claim the Eastern citizens as Turkish as well, and with turkeys emphasis on their own people, they rather put the murderous and uneducated eastern turks over any ethnic groups, especially kurds. Giving those people up would be seen as a betrayal so they do their hardest to keep all the turks associated so it becomes difficult for anyone not familiar with the region to see them as different groups.

See the issue I kind of see with trying to instill fear into Saudi royal families is they can't seem to register that there is a formidable force outside of them that can level that sandbox they call a country. So all our efforts might do is just further alienate Arabs and you bet your ass the Muslim propaganda will be out in full force. It's bad enough we're intervening in their country, but add some Muslim propaganda and there's calls for more jihad. Plus, I am just of the opinion that you need to let Arabs have their sovereignty, for better or for worse, while clearly telling them the consequences of getting worse. When they think they have no choice in their government cuz America makes the choice for them, they get angry and irrational. Muslim extremists just need that and a moving speech and the sheep line up to follow. That's why I hate Saudi Arabia so much. Other Arab countries have had or are gearing towards secular movements. I'm not familiar with Saudi Arabian history but I doubt I could find significant pushes towards secularism.

And of course we should be proud to be Americans, own up to all the good and all the bad we did. My point was it doesn't make us inherently superior to anyone. We're still human beings and the likely hood of any one American contributing significantly to any one achievement of America is quite unlikely. But Americans I've noticed like to strut around and feel important. We're not. We're human beings like everyone else. It is our individual actions that makes us great.

I see. It's about treating one group as subhuman so as not to offend the other, larger group. This is tribalism at its worst.

The problem is that, in the interim, if they are looking for propaganda, they're going to find something that suits their purposes. We will do something that offends them enough to mobilize their followers. And even if they didn't find something, do we really want to live our lives bending to the will of backwards ass Islamists? Why should their will matter to us at all? I think the only thing we can do is try and contain their leadership through fear while secularization happens. Try to mobilize people for jihad? That's what USSOCOM is for. Let the State Department, other agencies, and non-governmental agencies help push the modernization efforts and try to get them towards secularization.

Fair enough. We should use the good of our history as a standard for us to work towards every day.

 

[Vagitarian]

I see. It's about treating one group as subhuman so as not to offend the other, larger group. This is tribalism at its worst.

The problem is that, in the interim, if they are looking for propaganda, they're going to find something that suits their purposes. We will do something that offends them enough to mobilize their followers. And even if they didn't find something, do we really want to live our lives bending to the will of backwards ass Islamists? Why should their will matter to us at all? I think the only thing we can do is try and contain their leadership through fear while secularization happens. Try to mobilize people for jihad? That's what USSOCOM is for. Let the State Department, other agencies, and non-governmental agencies help push the modernization efforts and try to get them towards secularization.

Fair enough. We should use the good of our history as a standard for us to work towards every day.

Well the principal of kemalism that has been in place in Turkey was designed to change the muslim and multi-ethnic ottoman empire to a single nation and secular republic of Turkey. As such, Turks value turks above all else. In theory its fine, but straight oppressing Kurds and alienating them, and then wondering why they retaliate is just ludicrous.

It should matter only because again it gives muslims hope again that they can do something about their countries. Like we said before, the majority of muslims are just sheep. When a Nasser or Ataturk comes around to rally people towards secularism, they do it. When a Wahabi muslim or Isis leader leads people to extremism, they'll do it. By not disenfranchising the people in choosing their government, we can allow the secularists to come out again. If they all think we're gonna treat them like Mosadegh again, I can see why secular movements aren't gaining ground. And further aggressive interference like regime changes only helps those muslims who can keep painting our values as values of the enemy.

But if it matters, I hate the thought of allowing any of those extremists to go on living and conceding anything to their regimes. But I see the futility of forcing change on a people. Americans would not be able to accept a foreign muslim telling us what to do, neither would they listen to Americans.

 

[essie]

 

[Egelo]

germans waking up, just takes a nearly dead son for it to happen.