Crime Guy RNCed on NY subway dies. Trial begins 10/21

[IDGETKTFO]

Hope this sherdogger BJJ expert has fled the country, and probably thread will be merged, but is an interesting case, especially on a karate forum.

There is a video readily avails of the confrontation, but 3 people subdued this guy, one using a RNC. I can post a video of the dying part blurred out if permission is granted by mods.





And here is an opposite take



Don’t like Cernovich, but this was basically a year ago and a very accurate take

Imagine riding a train everyday knowing there is no law enforcement onboard to protect you from mentally ill riders, and no good samaritans willing to help in fear of going to jail for doing the "right thing"

 

[italiamusica]

You can tell how many people in here are just waiting for their chance to kill someone lol.

You can hold someone without killing them, and this guy didn't do that, so he deserves whatever repercussions he gets.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Nobody is saying 'Nelly had/deserved to die.'

I've had very many people on here explicitly say that lol. But I understand that is not YOUR view which is what matters.

I don't think he fucked up with the choking.
You're still taking at face value the headlines that Penny choked Neely for multiple minutes, reported anywhere from 6 to 12.

Penny only applied pressure to the choke when Neely was struggling, and it's very probable for a schizophrenic (which Nelly was) to panic and go into shock.

Neely by being addicted to K2, being schizophrenic, his pre-existing health condition, and threatened an entire subway car of people is at fault for his own death.

I very much disagree. I am not going by the headlines. I think you're misunderstanding my use of the word "fault". I am saying he, objectively, made choices that played a part in his death. Choices that if he had done differently would have left Neely alive.

That doesn't make Penny guilty, legally or morally. It's just a statement of fact that recklessly putting a man to sleep multiple times in 5 minute period is dangerous. He obviously didn't realize it tho.

Neely put him self into the situation. Penny provided the trigger for his death.

He put himself into that situation.

Correct. That doesn't change that he was not of sound mind and should not have been in a position to keep being a danger to himself.

Thank you.
Could be argued the NYC DA's office are more at fault for Neely's death than Penny, and Neely's assaults after the first one.

I'd make that argument

'Others' who will never face any type of consequences, and put the blame on Penny for Neely's death.

This is the cruel and unfortunate truth that isn't being addressed properly.

I've heard of Neely's backstory about the death of his mother. Its a tragedy, and I bet that's just the worst thing that happened during his upbringing.

But the fact is the time he became responsible for himself was a very long time before his death.

Blame the K2 addiction, mental illness, or _______ every adult makes choices for themselves, are are 100% responsible for them. No tragic backstory are excuses for 42 arrests & 4 assaults.

I think thos is where the misunderstandings and breakdown in communications occur. His situation being brought up is not to excuse his actions but to provide context as to why he put himself into that situation and how he needed helpto not be a danger to himself and others. Neely made mistakes and he made his choices. Choices that many bounce back from and many do not.

The man made his choices but he isn't the same as other scumbags who commit the sane crimes while sound of mind. He deserved to have a shot at rehabilitation while he served time for his crimes. Him not getting that isn't on Penny tho. That's on the DA and mental health system.

Yes it is a human issue... and unfortunately all of the media and legal attention was put on Penny, rather than the numerous systemic failures over numerous years that led to Neely's death.

And the sad fact is there are tens of thousands of Jordan Neelys across the world with the system failing for them. Perhaps they weren't choked to death on a subway, but drive through a local homeless district and you'll see hundreds if not thousands of people the system has failed and when they die... one way or another... not only will they be forgotten they probably won't even have funerals.

The left constantly says 'the system is broken' while pointing at capitalism as the failure. While completely ignoring the systems of justice, tolerance, and assistance has completely failed society and the Jordan Neelys of the world.

I agree all the way up until the very last paragraph because it's just as much on the right. Neither side acknowledges the issue let alone puts in the effort. The focus is always on finger pointing and blaming the other party.

Capitalism absolutely has issues that indirectly effect the numerous problems in this country but you're not gonna be able to change the entire system. You have to replace cogs within the mechanism. Fix the justice system. Fix the health care system. Fix the media.

Until then we will continue to fail all the Pennys and Neelys of the world.

And hey, I appreciate the Civil convo as always brother man

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

You can tell how many people in here are just waiting for their chance to kill someone lol.

You can hold someone without killing them, and this guy didn't do that, so he deserves whatever repercussions he gets.

He got off with nothing, which is honestly fine. I agree with you tho.

 

[GreatSaintGuillotine]

Imagine riding a train everyday knowing there is no law enforcement onboard to protect you from mentally ill riders, and no good samaritans willing to help in fear of going to jail for doing the "right thing"

To be fair, I think most people who are willing to help would initially be stopped by a the fear that they may get hurt or worse before fearing legal actions.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

I've had very many people on here explicitly say that lol. But I understand that is not YOUR view which is what matters.

My view is he 'Fucked around and found out.'
He's a victim of his own choices in life, both on the subway and years before it, and it led to his own death.

I very much disagree. I am not going by the headlines. I think you're misunderstanding my use of the word "fault". I am saying he, objectively, made choices that played a part in his death. Choices that if he had done differently would have left Neely alive.

Oh absolutely.
Penny could have done nothing at all, including allow Neely do what he said was going to do... something that would put Neely in prison for the rest of his life.
Instead, he did what most wish they would do in that situation, because most people are cowards.

I look at this in a way that Neely's death isn't the absolute worst thing that could have happened, and Neely could have assaulted a fifth innocent person.

That doesn't make Penny guilty, legally or morally. It's just a statement of fact that recklessly putting a man to sleep multiple times in 5 minute period is dangerous. He obviously didn't realize it tho.

It's worth mentioning Penny was aided by two people holding Neely down and preventing him from struggling.

I've have yet to hear a decent argument from those who believe Penny deserves prison and his 'accomplices' don't. They'd be accessories to manslaughter.

Neely put him self into the situation. Penny provided the trigger for his death.

Agreed.
And that basically sums up the entire debate.

Correct. That doesn't change that he was not of sound mind and should not have been in a position to keep being a danger to himself.

Penny, or anyone else on that subway could have known Neely's history.
*Preexisting health condition.
*Schizophrenia
*K2 addiction
*42 arrests with 4 assaults
So all of that is irrelevant for the frame of mind of the passengers. They only knew Neely was threatening them with violence, and they believed him.

I think thos is where the misunderstandings and breakdown in communications occur. His situation being brought up is not to excuse his actions but to provide context as to why he put himself into that situation and how he needed helpto not be a danger to himself and others. Neely made mistakes and he made his choices. Choices that many bounce back from and many do not.

The man made his choices but he isn't the same as other scumbags who commit the sane crimes while sound of mind. He deserved to have a shot at rehabilitation while he served time for his crimes. Him not getting that isn't on Penny tho. That's on the DA and mental health system.

"You can bring a donkey to water but you can't make it drink."

Not to take the fault off the DAs, and mental health services should be for non-criminals.

You'd be surprised how everything can become so much more clear within a jail cell. I speak from experience.

 

[GearSolidMetal]

And hey, I appreciate the Civil convo as always brother man

Its all good brother.
This was a convo that I wish there was more of in the WR.

 

[UberHere]

He didn't deserve to die for his behaviour any more than you sick cunts.

Eat a bag of dicks.

Glad your virtue signaling makes you feel good about yourself. Go buy yourself an ice cream and pat yourself on the back while telling yourself how good a person you are.

 

[Gutter Chris]

So, of course that makes the mentally ill person's death his own fault so too bad so sad. Right.

No.

Neely is mentally ill and unable to be responsible for himself.

And penny wasn't found guilty either so we can't pin it to him

So who does that leave for responsibility?


The state my friend. Killed neely and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up.


And I don't think he deserved to die. But he did present himself as a threat and got dealt with accordingly and unfortunately that lead to him losing his life. If you behave in a threatening manner where fleeing isn't an option the outcome might not be great.

 

[UberHere]

No.

Neely is mentally ill and unable to be responsible for himself.

And penny wasn't found guilty either so we can't pin it to him

So who does that leave for responsibility?


The state my friend. Killed neely and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up.


And I don't think he deserved to die. But he did present himself as a threat and got dealt with accordingly and unfortunately that lead to him losing his life. If you behave in a threatening manner where fleeing isn't an option the outcome might not be great.

I don’t think any besides maybe one or two are saying he deserved to die. Just that he created the situation that resulted in his death. I’m also on record saying I wouldn’t care if Penny had to do some time for fucking up. I also don’t care that he’s not doing any.

 

[Gutter Chris]

I don’t think any besides maybe one or two are saying he deserved to die. Just that he created the situation that resulted in his death. I’m also on record saying I wouldn’t care if Penny had to do some time for fucking up. I also don’t care that he’s not doing any.

I woulda been pissed if penny was found guilty as I don't think he did anything wrong. He thought that neely was a threat to everyone around him and did the best he could with what he had.

I don't think it's a good thing for society to train people to not help each other and to just keep their head down. If it was your wife or your kid or even you ....you would want someone to step in

To me both this case and Rittenhouse it wasn't just the men on trial but the right to self defense in general and I believe that right must be protected.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

I woulda been pissed if penny was found guilty as I don't think he did anything wrong. He thought that neely was a threat to everyone around him and did the best he could with what he had.

I don't think it's a good thing for society to train people to not help each other and to just keep their head down. If it was your wife or your kid or even you ....you would want someone to step in

To me both this case and Rittenhouse it wasn't just the men on trial but the right to self defense in general and I believe that right must be protected.

Absolutely. Also, knowing who was ultimately responsible for Neely's death(hint; it was Neely), is NOT saying he deserved to die. He set the stage himself. I wish he hadn't died, but, that is on him. I want people to help others when they can, and try to prevent other's from doing great harm. Once someone says they will kill someone, people shouldn't have to wait until someone actually dies to do anything. Crazy world full of apathetic shits now.

 

[nonoob]

Was Jordan Williams subway killing a "bee ell m calling for vigilante action, killed for being loud" ?

I don’t think any besides maybe one or two are saying he deserved to die. Just that he created the situation that resulted in his death. I’m also on record saying I wouldn’t care if Penny had to do some time for fucking up.

We understand.

 

[Andy Capp]

No.

Neely is mentally ill and unable to be responsible for himself.

And penny wasn't found guilty either so we can't pin it to him

So who does that leave for responsibility?


The state my friend. Killed neely and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up.


And I don't think he deserved to die. But he did present himself as a threat and got dealt with accordingly and unfortunately that lead to him losing his life. If you behave in a threatening manner where fleeing isn't an option the outcome might not be great.

In the context of the posts to which I was responding (see below), what is your point, exactly?

Nobody is saying 'Nelly had/deserved to die.'

That's exactly what people are saying ITT,

crazy violent man dead.

everyone is safer now.

profit.

Right. He created the whole situation.

Correct

I'm not sure why people have so much difficulty separating the various parts of this discussion unless it's deliberate or because of low intellect.

1. The events of that day could have been prevented if the system were better. The dead man had no power to make the system better. That knowledge doesn't change what happened. I think this is indisputable.

2. In as much as he was mentally ill I think it's a given he's not responsible for his own death. To judge him deserving of death for acting threatening says a lot about the people doing the judging. Do they feel the same about the CEO that was murdered the other day who was responsible for far more suffering, by all accounts?

3. If there is doubt about whether Penny caused the guy's death then of course he should face no consequences. But if he caused the death, even indirectly, then he committed a crime whether it was his intent or not and whether or not he is sentenced to anything other than a slap on the wrist.

Re: "and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up." if you have a link to the evidence of that handy I'd like to see it, just out of curiosity--it's irrelevant now, I think.

 

[Andy Capp]

I bet a bag of severed penises wouldn't taste very good, so I'll have to pass.

And the 'He Didn't Deserve To Die' line is so tired, especially from the left who are against capital punishment in all circumstances. Those who share your philosophy defend multi-murders being put to death while saying the tired line of 'he doesn't deserve to die' shows their credibility on the subject.

Of course you feel Neely didn't deserve to die.
You don't feel anyone 'deserves' to die.

Ever stop my P&M's 'F*** Around & Find Out' thread? We post clips of idiots getting hurt and sometimes seriously injured by their own stunts and accidents. Did they deserve to be hurt or seriously injured? Doesn't matter how you or I feel about it. They took the risk and found out the consequences.

Maybe you should be putting more blame on NYC's DAs for trying to put Penny in prison for as long as 15 years when they should have put Neely in prison for at least a few years so maybe he'll straighten himself out and his death may have never happened.

Tell that to @scoopj

 

[Gutter Chris]

In the context of the posts to which I was responding (see below), what is your point, exactly?


That's exactly what people are saying ITT,




I'm not sure why people have so much difficulty separating the various parts of this discussion unless it's deliberate or because of low intellect.

1. The events of that day could have been prevented if the system were better. The dead man had no power to make the system better. That knowledge doesn't change what happened. I think this is indisputable.

2. In as much as he was mentally ill I think it's a given he's not responsible for his own death. To judge him deserving of death for acting threatening says a lot about the people doing the judging. Do they feel the same about the CEO that was murdered the other day who was responsible for far more suffering, by all accounts?

3. If there is doubt about whether Penny caused the guy's death then of course he should face no consequences. But if he caused the death, even indirectly, then he committed a crime whether it was his intent or not and whether or not he is sentenced to anything other than a slap on the wrist.

Re: "and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up." if you have a link to the evidence of that handy I'd like to see it, just out of curiosity--it's irrelevant now, I think.

Neely shouldn't have been free. You need a link to his criminal history ? That's on the state and that's the fuck up I am referring to. Penny never should have had to get into a bjj match with the guy in the first place. You don't need a link you are here so I am assuming you know the details already.


Are you saying neely was not a threat ? I agree he wasn't responsible for his own actions but that doesn't make what he was up to any less of a problem . Can you say if Penny didn't grab him up that neely wasn't going to hurt anyone ? Prior bad acts suggest that wouldn't be a wise bet.

Penny didn't do anything wrong. He choked a guy out and he died but Penny didn't create the situation and he was just trying to protect other people. That's not criminal that's heroic

I don't understand how anyone could possibly see it any other way.

 

[Rob Battisti]

In the context of the posts to which I was responding (see below), what is your point, exactly?


That's exactly what people are saying ITT,




I'm not sure why people have so much difficulty separating the various parts of this discussion unless it's deliberate or because of low intellect.

1. The events of that day could have been prevented if the system were better. The dead man had no power to make the system better. That knowledge doesn't change what happened. I think this is indisputable.

2. In as much as he was mentally ill I think it's a given he's not responsible for his own death. To judge him deserving of death for acting threatening says a lot about the people doing the judging. Do they feel the same about the CEO that was murdered the other day who was responsible for far more suffering, by all accounts?

3. If there is doubt about whether Penny caused the guy's death then of course he should face no consequences. But if he caused the death, even indirectly, then he committed a crime whether it was his intent or not and whether or not he is sentenced to anything other than a slap on the wrist.

Re: "and then tried to railroad penny into prison to cover its fuck up." if you have a link to the evidence of that handy I'd like to see it, just out of curiosity--it's irrelevant now, I think.

A lot wrong with this post, but what is the use.

 

[KnightTemplar]

You can tell how many people in here are just waiting for their chance to kill someone lol.

You can hold someone without killing them, and this guy didn't do that, so he deserves whatever repercussions he gets.

Well he isn't facing any legal repercussions, since he was found Not Guilty.

 

[KnightTemplar]

Oh it is absolutely trash. Don't get it twisted. Everything in combatives is trash. I've been doing BJJ for well over a decade and did mma and kickboxing for a long time as well. Taking MCMAP seriously enough to get my tab killed me on the inside lol.

Back in the early days of the UFC, an ex-Army Ranger decided to compete, claiming the hand-to-hand training he'd received during the Ranger Indoctrination Program was better than Martial Arts.

He eat a knee to the face and got KTFO in the first round. As one of the commentators said,

"Well, now his MMA career is RIP"

 

[nhbbear]

I woulda been pissed if penny was found guilty as I don't think he did anything wrong. He thought that neely was a threat to everyone around him and did the best he could with what he had.

I don't think it's a good thing for society to train people to not help each other and to just keep their head down. If it was your wife or your kid or even you ....you would want someone to step in

To me both this case and Rittenhouse it wasn't just the men on trial but the right to self defense in general and I believe that right must be protected.

Both cases tried the right to self defense and the defense of others and in both cases, self defense won out. Doesn’t mean it is safe to get involved but that has always been a distant second concern for me with my primary concern being if the subject is armed or not, but I know I would get involved in a situation like this. Maybe it’s because I still hold onto that cop inside of me which seems like it may never entirely leave me. I still check exits and size everyone up that I see, but I am not so paranoid that I can’t sit with my back to the entrance like some cops.