Gun Rights and Mental Illness

what about the rights of those around them?

How does having a mental illness violate someone else's rights?

realistically, what really happens to someone if you take away their right to own a gun for 90 days? does their universe collapse? will they be burned alive by the SS or gestapo? nah. they cant feel like a badass or shoot cans for a few days. they can read jefferson quotes about blood of tyrants and trees until they get their rights and sanity back.

Where is the 90 days coming from? Was that suggested or is that already the case?

But since you asked for something more tangible, maybe that's hunting season and the ability to eat as planned is compromised?
 
How does having a mental illness violate someone else's rights?



Where is the 90 days coming from? Was that suggested or is that already the case?

But since you asked for something more tangible, maybe that's hunting season and the ability to eat as planned is compromised?

lol maybe they can get another job in order to eat?
 
Obligated in what sense? Are Adam Lanza and the Santa Barbara shooter's doctors going to jail? And how specific does the plan have to be? If a schizophrenic says that he fantasizes about hurting people, is that enough? Or does he actually have to say 'I am going to shoot Joe Blow on Tuesday at 10:00 am"? It's not so easy when you get down the details.

I'm not too well read on the subject but there's a spiel therapists give you before you start with them concerning patient confidentiality. I believe specifics are required and I believe that you must demonstrate that you intend on carrying out an act of violence. Something like "Sometimes I feel like hurting people" wouldn't be enough but "I'm thinking of shooting my wife and child tonight before shooting myself" would definitely be enough. There's obviously a lot of gray in between those two statements so I imagine it can get complicated.
 
In truth skilled doctors are not only suppose to check physical health but administer mental tests as well or at least on the same visit. So you see how far society has to go to being normal. All free of charge of course. With the millions and millions of Americans I think the medical fields will boom. :icon_chee
 
So post Santa Barbara, there's been a lot of talk about why the doctors didn't do anything if they knew the kid was disturbed. Similar questions were asked regarding Adam Lanza after Sandy Hook. So here's my question:

Should psychiatrists and police in combination be legally allowed to seize weapons if they decide a person is mentally unstable and hold those weapons (and prevent the person from buying more guns) throughout some sort of hearing on mental stability? If the person is found to be disturbed should their gun rights be restricted forever? Should it be a felony for such a person to buy guns, and a felony to sell them to him? Should only private psychiatrists be able to do this, or should people suspected of insanity be subject to psychiatric evaluation that could lead to loss of gun rights?

I'd vote yes, but then again I don't consider the right to bear arms particularly important in this day and age. Certainly not restrictions on things like high capacity magazines and slightly altered military grade weapons like AR-15s.
I can already hear Byron having a stroke from across the internet. Good luck with all of that.
 
If not having a gun is what's stopping them from working, then they are lazy / psychotic bums and deserve no sympathy from me.

Dude. You said

lol maybe they can get another job in order to eat?

I don't see how going out and providing for your own subsistence (via the time-honored tradition of hunting) is lazy. Please elaborate.
 
Nevermind then. I thought you were trying to be informative so I asked a specific question since looking at the Amendments, the ones you pointed out, don't make me think it's ok to...

1. Identify potential wrong-doers who've yet to commit any crime
2. Have a random professional agree somebody might do something (probable or not)
3. Seize Constitutionally protected private property
4. Take away enumerated rights for the rest of their lives

When I add all this up it doesn't really pass the smell test for me.

Which is why you need to look at the relevant case law. We've had over 200 years of Supreme Court holdings that define the limits of our various amendments. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you keep making the argument that you don't see it spelled out literally in the Constitution. Such a literalist argument doesn't get you anywhere.

For instance, the Constitution says that we are entitled to due process. Ok, so what counts as "due process." The Constitution itself doesn't expand on the concept, so you turn to SCOTUS as the Constitutionally identified branch that gets to make such interpretations for the answer.

To that effect, the State can order private property seized under certain conditions. Now, as our right to bear arms is a fundamental right, the State must pass the highest level of scrutiny to legally infringe, but it can be done. For instance, the State can seize firearms (private property) from convicted felons. Further, the state can in certain circumstances prevent citizens who have committed no wrong from owning or possessing firearms, as they do with small children. SCOTUS has held both of these to be constitutional.
 
Dude. You said



I don't see how going out and providing for your own subsistence (via the time-honored tradition of hunting) is lazy. Please elaborate.
If you're gonna starve because you don't have a firearm to hunt, in a 1st world country like the US of A then you deserve to starve.

Capiche?
 
Which is why you need to look at the relevant case law. We've had over 200 years of Supreme Court holdings that define the limits of our various amendments. I'm not trying to be rude here, but you keep making the argument that you don't see it spelled out literally in the Constitution. Such a literalist argument doesn't get you anywhere.

For instance, the Constitution says that we are entitled to due process. Ok, so what counts as "due process." The Constitution itself doesn't expand on the concept, so you turn to SCOTUS as the Constitutionally identified branch that gets to make such interpretations for the answer.

To that effect, the State can order private property seized under certain conditions. Now, as our right to bear arms is a fundamental right, the State must pass the highest level of scrutiny to legally infringe, but it can be done. For instance, the State can seize firearms (private property) from convicted felons. Further, the state can in certain circumstances prevent citizens who have committed no wrong from owning or possessing firearms, as they do with small children. SCOTUS has held both of these to be constitutional.

Look, I appreciate any patience you have here. Nobody should need a law degree to understand their rights, plus if case law is that convoluted it needs 200 years of study (is that one semester or two?) then maybe it's not so black and white such that proclaiming SCOTUS (probably 5 to fucking 4) ruled blah blah blah.

I don't know the case law because I haven't studied myself in the nuance of legal manipulation. I'm just trying to look at the supreme law of the land and apply it the best I can.

I guess what I'm saying is if all you got is "you don't know shit and I'm too cool to school you in it" then maybe you're not contributing to much but your own vanity. Just a theory. :icon_evil

:)

I understand there's different levels of scrutiny. I also understand that non-children who have committed no crime deserve a bit more scrutiny than "Whelp, better safe than sorry (wink wink: better them than us: nudge nudge)".
 
If you're gonna starve because you don't have a firearm to hunt, in a 1st world country like the US of A then you deserve to starve.

Capiche?

Aren't you not from the place you are talking about? Now please reign in the hyperbole (i.e. starve) and replace it with what I said about planning on hunting season to provide months of sustenance and then being deprived of it.
 
I guess what I'm saying is if all you got is "you don't know shit and I'm too cool to school you in it" then maybe you're not contributing to much but your own vanity. Just a theory. :icon_evil

Ok. That's not really what I was going for. Just saying that the notion of due process has been fleshed out over quite some time. And the gist of it is that the State can seize personal property when it offers a fair and timely hearing.

Now in regards to gun rights, the State would first have to overcome strict scrutiny to demonstrate than any confiscation/restraining order is the least restrictive means of achieving a compelling state interest (that being the prevention of mass-shootings). Then the State would have to show that whatever hearings were used to deprive the individual were both (1) timely and (2) fair.

Additionally the deprived would have to be afforded proper notice of seizure/forfeiture, so as to be afforded time to prepare his response. This really is a case-by-case basis thing. For instance, Federal Courts have held that newspaper adds listing addresses of homes to be demolished without compensation counted as fair notice for those whose homes were badly damaged following hurricane Katrina (the court based such logic on the lack of city-wide infrastructure at the time in New Orleans).

So really, it depends on what legislation is proposed before we can really turn a critical eye to it. But it would be possible to put something constitutional in place. That being said, given our current political climate, I can't see anything getting enough Republican support at this time.
 
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Aren't you not from the place you are talking about? Now please reign in the hyperbole (i.e. starve) and replace it with what I said about planning on hunting season to provide months of sustenance and then being deprived of it.

Find another job. If I'm mental nutcase I can't join the military, the police or other jobs requiring firearms. Cry me a river and find another f**king job.

No I'm not from America which I've stated in the other firearms thread.
 
I can already hear Byron having a stroke from across the internet. Good luck with all of that.

That's kind of the point. I have an argument to win.
 
Ok. That's not really what I was going for. Just saying that the notion of due process has been fleshed out over quite some time. And the gist of it is that the State can seize personal property when it offers a fair and timely hearing.

Now in regards to gun rights, the State would first have to overcome strict scrutiny to demonstrate than any confiscation/restraining order is the least restrictive means of achieving a compelling state interest (that being the prevention of mass-shootings). Then the State would have to show that whatever hearings were used to deprive the individual were both (1) timely and (2) fair.

Additionally the deprived would have to be afforded proper notice of seizure/forfeiture, so as to be afforded time to prepare his response. This really is a case-by-case basis thing. For instance, Federal Courts have held that newspaper adds listing addresses of homes to be demolished without compensation counted as fair notice for those whose homes were badly damaged following hurricane Katrina (the court based such logic on the lack of city-wide infrastructure at the time in New Orleans).

So really, it depends on what legislation is proposed before we can really turn a critical eye to it. But it would be possible to put something constitutional in place. That being said, given our current political climate, I can't see anything getting enough Republican support at this time.

Thanks. That all makes sense. Fair and timely would be key elements in my mind. I don't think any of the reservations I've stated are all that controversial.

Find another job. If I'm mental nutcase I can't join the military, the police or other jobs requiring firearms. Cry me a river and find another f**king job.

That's fine that you're unsympathetic. I was just doing my best to answer the hypothetical question I was asked.
 
So post Santa Barbara, there's been a lot of talk about why the doctors didn't do anything if they knew the kid was disturbed. Similar questions were asked regarding Adam Lanza after Sandy Hook. So here's my question:

Should psychiatrists and police in combination be legally allowed to seize weapons if they decide a person is mentally unstable and hold those weapons (and prevent the person from buying more guns) throughout some sort of hearing on mental stability? If the person is found to be disturbed should their gun rights be restricted forever? Should it be a felony for such a person to buy guns, and a felony to sell them to him? Should only private psychiatrists be able to do this, or should people suspected of insanity be subject to psychiatric evaluation that could lead to loss of gun rights?

I'd vote yes, but then again I don't consider the right to bear arms particularly important in this day and age. Certainly not restrictions on things like high capacity magazines and slightly altered military grade weapons like AR-15s.

Whether you agree with this or not, unstable people are going to kill people regardless. Lets not forget three people were stabbed to death in all of this as well.

And attention whore of a father of the one victim can't seem to understand that either.
 
It's tough to diagnose people.

I worked with a guy for years and am convinced he has mental illness, he even thinks so but he's never known for sure. He is bi polar and paranoid as hell. Constantly thinks people are out to get him and everyone around him has hidden motives that entail his demise.

But to strangers they would never know. Thankfully, he owns no weapons.
 
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