Guard passing against fast, flexible, and slippery guys?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by HockeyBjj, May 18, 2014.

  1. HockeyBjj

    HockeyBjj Putting on the foil

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    So I've always thought my guard passing was at the least decent. Poor at breaking the guard, but once I get it I can use single or double under or a knee slice to get to side control just about every time unless he's a monster.

    Yesterday, going against someone similar experience in no gi, I just could not clear his legs. He could always get a knee back between us before I got down. I could drive his knee into his chest and the pressure wouldn't phase him and he was going inverted a lot. We were both sweaty and so I couldn't hold his legs tight on a double under and he'd slide one out.

    Kinda tough to explain the frustration I had. Spent 4 of 5 minutes in varying stages of near pass bouncing from one side to the other. If anyone understands what I'm saying, any ideas?
     
  2. LODD2

    LODD2 Yellow Belt

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    Stack and instead of passing to one side, lift them up, and slam them down. Virtually every single person I did this to gave it up immediately bar one person who nearly broke my arm in anger.
     
  3. BJJArsenal

    BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    You're a fucking idiot and horrible training partner. Doing something that is so obviously dangerous to someone's neck and spine is a terrible thing to do.

    Also, the one thing I'd say is don't stack.
     
  4. randomg1t

    randomg1t EVERYTIME CHAMPION

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    slam me once, shame on you. slam me twice, i'll start heelkicking you in the nuts.
     
  5. Rod1

    Rod1 Titanium Belt

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    You need to shoot to establish northsouth right off the bat, since you seem to have trouble controlling the hips of your opponent.
     
  6. sha

    sha Geekjitsu Black Belt

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    Try the double-underhook pass. It's basically one of the only passes that works against guys with a really flexible guard (see Mendes vs Miyao at the last ADCC, I think).
     
  7. kinkykid

    kinkykid White Belt

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    So you rolled with someone that was good at retaining guard? String your passes together. Few people past white belt can just rely on one or two ways to get past the guard.
     
  8. pistol3

    pistol3 Orange Belt

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    Going inverted? Time to leg drag...
     
  9. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Bingo. The Atos style of passing was basically invented to pass against small, really flexible guys with great guard retention. Leg drag all day. It gives you the most control post pass and makes it very hard for the bottom guy to hip out/invert and retain. Even from double unders I go to the leg drag to finish the majority of the time just because it's so much tighter.

    Also, the guy who said 'slam them' is either a troll or a moron and wouldn't last two minutes in a legit gym. Don't ever slam people.
     
  10. Chinaboxer

    Chinaboxer Blue Belt

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    sounds like you are not keeping "connection" and "weight distribution" on your partner. practice keeping your hands and knees off the ground at all times to ensure you keep your weight on your partner and not transfer it to the ground.

    if you disconnect your weight from him by backing up or putting your hands/knees to the floor, you are allowing him the space to recompose his guard. this is a "skill" and not a "technique". it will take awhile for you to really be able to use it. until then, you will get put into guard and triangles alot, but don't let it stop you from continuing to adhere to these two principles. eventually you will develop the skill and it will be easy for you to pass anyone's guard.
     
  11. pistol3

    pistol3 Orange Belt

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    Out of curiosity, what's your favorite double-unders to leg drag transition?
     
  12. inverted vortex

    inverted vortex Orange Belt

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    I am one of those fast, slippery guys you speak of, and I have trouble with people who use pressure passing to take away my hip movement. One hand on the near side knee and the other on the outside hip an I'm forced to scramble.
     
  13. shunyata

    shunyata Red Belt

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    Sounds like a great tactical decision on your part.
     
  14. BJJArsenal

    BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    I'm fast and flexible and I rarely get hit with a double unders. Then I started getting hit with one over one under then I figured that out. Only thing that works consistently and always has is leg-drag style passing.
     
  15. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    One thing that works well for me, besides leg dragging, is to get into an "intermediate" position and then just wear the guy out. In other words, I will drop a knee into a knee slide position. He will block, and then I will just grab the arms/head/leg and put pressure and weight on the guy over and over. Eventually, he gets exhausted and can no longer defend effectively.

    I am sorry to give such a non-technical and "ugly" answer, but in the real world you will often need to use your strength and weight for a long time in order to break down a skilled lighter opponent before you can succeed at a pass. There is a lot you can do to force him to burn more energy than you. Frankly this advice works great for many grappling situations, and I'm surprised people aren't more open about it .... you can beat a lot of guys with cardio and power by just making them work too hard to defend.

    What I see a lot of times is that a bigger and stronger player is not making his opponent work, instead he just wants the quick technical pass. That's a mistake in my view. If you have the size advantage, it should be a constant physical struggle that is slowly burying your opponent. Every minute that goes by is a minute where you are gaining the upper hand. But if it's a technical chess match, then he is winning the strategic battle by letting the fight happen on his terms.
     
  16. Ice 9 Cobra

    Ice 9 Cobra Black Belt

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    Great advice Zankou, that's what i usually do with guys who keep inverting. I just hold them inverted and put pressure while not attempting to pass and wear them down
     
  17. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    So the way I do it is this:

    1. Get to double unders. You really need his hips pretty far off the ground, in a high stack.

    2. Feed the lower part of one of his lapels to your cross side hand. Doesn't matter which direction. The guard player can prevent you from getting the high collar grip but can't really stop you from getting a lower lapel grip.

    3. Move the knee of the non-lapel gripping side to the middle. Your knee should not be touching his butt, you should still be hipping in from a low squat with good posture, but you want to start moving your body to the lapel grip side.

    4. Your non-lapel gripping hand should move from wrapping around his leg to grabbing his belt or the lip of his pants to keep his hips in the air during your transition.

    5. Once you're in position, you basically dive to the lapel gripping side and the knee of your non lapel gripping side comes up behind his legs in the leg drag position. He will still be facing up, you'll be basically on your side though pushing into him. Now release the hand that's grabbing his pants/belt and reach around his leg on your lapel gripping side, and feed the lapel to your other hand (the hand that was holding his belt). This should be his cross side lapel. Your other hand now grabs his belt as low as possible.

    6. You should now be in a tight leg drag position, albeit on your side. Work your way to your knees gradually pushing your opponent onto his side. If you maintain the leg drag position the orientation is less important. Just don't let your leg drag control falter.
     
  18. Uchi Mata

    Uchi Mata Preaching the gospel of heel hooks and left kicks

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    Making a guy carry your weight seems perfectly legit from a technical standpoint to me. I do it all the time. If you get a good position there's no reason to be in a rush to pass, proceed incrementally and if the bottom guy gets antsy then be ready to take advantage of it. Opportunities come from putting pressure on your opponent, whether that's pressure due to speed (creating and winning scrambles) or pressure due to size + technique.
     
  19. Zankou

    Zankou Bringing peace and love Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I find there is often a prejudice in BJJ against being a grinder, but the reality is that you are often in situations where you are a physically superior player who is fighting a technically superior player. And it's just foolish to let the fight take place at a level where your opponent has the upper hand. Often lighter weight players either have more skill than heavier players or (due to their flexibility and movement) have more versatility, which means the heavier player is at a technical disadvantage.

    The converse is also exactly true -- a lighter player should always try to make the fight happen at a technical level, rather than sustained physical pressure. Rafa's match against Rodolfo Vieira is a masterpiece of showing what an elite lighter nogi player should do to frustrate and block the guard pass. Because Rodolfo cannot close the distance to put pressure, he cannot physically wear down Rafa, and so the fight takes place mostly on Rafa's terms (IMO Rafa won this match tho the ref gave it to Rodolfo).

    [YT]X-14lVlU-Ks[/YT]
     
  20. BJJArsenal

    BJJArsenal Brown Belt

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    Good advice from Zankou too. Having to play in those positions suck hard.
     

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