GSP is not GOAT pick for mma fans out of North America

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by pankrat, Mar 19, 2020.

  1. pankrat

    pankrat Purple Belt

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    Info rather than opinion.
    You don't listen people from Europe or Asia - let alone LatinAmerica - calling GSP the best ever; certainly one of the best but not #1.

    Anderson Silva is most consensual answer; as Fedor was a decade ago.

    GSP was great fighter and likeable guy but finishing ability is defining factor when discussing the GOAT

    PD - DJ has a case but Flyweight is a tough one, he may even be able to make 115lbs if the money was there.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2020 at 5:07 PM
  2. Slippage

    Slippage Blue Belt

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    The alleged "GOAT" changes every week in MMA. Who gives a shit. It's too young a sport to be certain who the best ever is anyway.
     
  3. vik93

    vik93 Blue Belt

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    Oh ya, I'm sure you polled everyone. Silva was a cheat, name a cheat that is considered the GOAT in any sport.

    Every hardcore MMA fan I've spoken with puts GSP at the top. Now, if you ride a certain fighter's dick or you watch a lot of pro wrestling your opinion probably differs. But if you're a sports fan, you understand what GSP is. Titles matter. Wins matter. Being untainted matters. Leaving at the top matters. Two divisions matter. Avenging all your losses matter. People forget or weren't watching when GSP competed. Welterweight was the most stacked division in the sport and he ruled with an iron fist.. All of the that cements his status, again unless you're one of the fans I described above.
     
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  4. Blanqa Blanqua

    Blanqa Blanqua Silver Belt

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    It’s finally safe to diss GSP, now that mods are all in love with Khabib instead.
     
  5. Sweater of AV

    Sweater of AV Silver Belt

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  6. Vegeta

    Vegeta I’ll never give in to you circus freaks!

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    Whaha, good one TS.
    Fedor and GSP, the best ever, and you know it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  7. GrayArea

    GrayArea Brown Belt

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    Yes, it’s a safe bet that the sherdog GOAT poll is severely warped because Canadians are extremely biased In favor of Georges since the country has such little success in MMA outside of him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  8. Shaddows

    Shaddows Steel Belt

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    While he is not the one I consider GOAT, I don't think it is fair to disqualify him because people dislike his style.
    He may not have finished fighters, but he dominated almost every one he faced throughout his reign.
     
  9. 13 others

    13 others Brown Belt

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    TS, GSP isn't the first persons in a while you're not sure what the hell you want but you can have babies in your house in a decision to be the guy who has the right to do their own thing.
     
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  10. Slippage

    Slippage Blue Belt

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    Ducking also matters. He refused to come back to fight the best at his natural weight in Woodley, but came back to fight one of the acknowledged weakest middleweight champs ever in Bisping. I don't give much credit to the two division thing at all. It's too easy to achieve with Dana matchmaking. You got dudes like Henry Cejudo running around calling himself GOAT now because he did the whole Champ Champ gimmick.

    Not saying GSP isn't GOAT (or one of them). I got no skin in this game. But he has plenty arguments against him as well.
     
  11. Ironnik94

    Ironnik94 Seek & Destroy Belt

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    @pankrat
    Fought in a division which is way more stacked than middleweight, let alone light heavyweight and literally beat everyone he's stepped in the cage against, but allegedly is no legitimate GOAT candidate.
    <36>
    Sure thing, bud.
    (Coming from a german, by the way.)
    [​IMG]
    Fought in the weightclass with arguably the second largest talentpool ever and his UFC-wins looked like this:
    1. Parisyan, at the time 10-2...............21 yo (GSP: 22 yo)
    2. Hieron, at the time 4-0.....................27 yo (GSP: 23 yo)
    3. Miller, at the time 11-3......................24 yo (GSP: 24 yo)
    4. Trigg, at the time 12-3.....................33 yo (GSP: 24 yo)
    5. Sherk, at the time 31-1-1.................32 yo (GSP: 24 yo)
    6. Penn, at the time 10-2-1..................27 yo (GSP: 25 yo)
    7. Hughes I, at the time 41-4...............33 yo (GSP: 25 yo)
    8. Koscheck I, at the time 9-1..............29 yo (GSP: 26 yo)
    9. Hughes II, at the time 42-5...............34 yo (GSP: 26 yo)
    10. Serra, at the time 10-4.....................34 yo (GSP: 26 yo)
    11. Fitch, at the time 19-2......................30 yo (GSP: 27 yo)
    12. Penn II, at the time 13-4-1................30 yo (GSP: 28 yo)
    13. Alves, at the time 17-5.....................25 yo (GSP: 28 yo)
    14. Hardy, at the time 23-6.....................28 yo (GSP: 29 yo)
    15. Koscheck II, at the time 15-4...........33 yo (GSP: 29 yo)
    16. Shields, at the time 26-4-1...............32 yo (GSP: 29 yo)
    17. Condit, at the time 28-5....................28 yo (GSP: 31 yo)
    18. Nick Diaz, at the time 26-7...............29 yo (GSP: 31 yo)
    19. Johny Hendricks, at the time 15-1...30 yo (GSP: 32 yo)
    20. Michael Bisping, at the time 30-7.....38 yo (GSP: 36 yo)
    • The guys he has won against were on average 29.85 years old.
    • When they've faced GSP, they had an average win-percentage of 85% - in comparison: the opponents Demetrious Johnson has won against had won on average 83% of their fights, Jon Jones' opponents' have won 81% of their fights, Jose Aldo's opponents have won 80% of their fights, Anderson Silva's opponents have won 79% of their fights and Emelianenko's opponents have on average won 72% of their fights when he beat them.
    Another thing, which is important when looking at the level of opposition, is the number of wins and losses the beaten opponents of the above mentioned fighters had when they've beat them until the point where they've started losing repeatedly. Note: I have left draws out:

    Mighty Mouse's UFC/WEC/One opponents:
    312-64 in 20 wins. (30-3 record himself)

    Jose Aldo's UFC/WEC opponents:
    317-78 in 18 wins. (28-4 record himself)

    Georges St-Pierre's UFC opponents:
    392-70 in 20 wins. (26-2 record himself)

    Anderson Silva's UFC opponents:
    298-75 in 16 wins. (33-4 record himself)

    Jon Jones' UFC opponents:

    362-83 in 20 wins. (26-1 record himself)

    Fedor Emelianenko's opponents:

    362-139 in 31 wins. (31-1 record himself)

    So if we base the strength of the opposition these guys have beaten on how high their win-percentage was when they've been beaten, the ranking looks like this:
    1. Georges St-Pierre (85%)
    2. Demetrious Johnson (83%)
    3. Jon Jones (81%)
    4. Jose Aldo (80%)
    5. Anderson Silva (79%)
    6. Fedor Emelianenko (72%)
    Ranking the opponents of each fighter by their average experience (number of pro fights):
    1. Anderson Silva: 23 (23.3)
    2. Georges St-Pierre: 23 (23.1)
    3. Jon Jones: 22 (22.3)
    4. Jose Aldo: 22 (21.9)
    5. Demetrious Johnson: 19 (18.8)
    6. Fedor Emelianenko: 16 (16.2)
    But at what point in their career did those fighters losses happen? At which age and at what level of experience? And against who?

    Demetrious Johnson
    1st loss: UD, 23 yo, 10 pro fights exp, B. Pickett's record then: 18-4, now: 25-14
    2nd loss: UD, 25 yo, 15 pro fights exp, D. Cruz' record then: 18-1, now: 22-2
    3rd loss: SD, 31 yo, 29 pro fights exp, H. Cejudo's record then: 12-2, now: 15-2

    Jose Aldo
    1st loss: Sub, 19 yo, 7 pro fights exp, L. Azevedo's record then: 6-2, now: 17-9
    2nd loss: KO, 29 yo, 26 pro fights exp, C. McGregor's record then: 18-2, now: 22-4
    3rd loss: TKO, 30 yo, 28 pro fights exp, M. Holloway's record then: 17-3, now: 21-5
    4th loss: TKO, 31 yo, 29 pro fights exp, M. Holloway's record then: 18-3, now: 21-5

    Georges St-Pierre
    1st loss: Sub, 23 yo, 7 pro fights exp, M. Hughes' record then: 36-4, now: 45-9
    2nd loss: TKO, 25 yo, 14 pro fights exp, M. Serra's record then: 9-4, now: 11-7

    Anderson Silva
    1st loss: UD, 25 yo, 2 pro fights exp, L. Azeredo's record then: 2-1, now: 15-10
    2nd loss: Sub, 28 yo, 12 pro fights exp, D. Takase's record then: 4-7, now: 12-15
    3rd loss: Sub, 29 yo, 16 pro fights exp, R. Chonan's record then: 7-4, now: 22-13
    4th loss: DQ, 30 yo, 19 pro fights exp, Y. Okami's record then: 13-2, now: 36-14

    Jon Jones
    1st loss: DQ, 22 yo, 9 pro fights exp, M. Hamill's record then: 7-2, now: 13-8

    Fedor Emelianenko
    1st loss: TKO, 24 yo, 4 pro fights exp, T. Kosaka's record then: 19-10, now: 27-20


    So far so good, but what possible taints the record of those fighters?
    • Demetrious Johnson: n/a
    • Jose Aldo: maybe that urine test? idk.
    • Georges St-Pierre: allegedly had is cornerman rub vaseline on his back (https://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/2/744379/more-on-the-georges-st-pie)
    • Anderson Silva: has tested positive for banned substances multiple times
    • Jon Jones: has tested positive for banned substances multiple times
    • Fedor Emelianenko: n/a

    Conclusion: you don't have to like Georges St-Pierre (or his fans) but his resume couldn't be further from overrated.
    Side note for the Fedor fans: the fact that he's beaten lots of sub-par opponents between the all-time greats he has beaten does of course "taint" his record in the terms of the very statistics i've listed here, so i just want to say that he's in my top three best/greatest fighters of all time, consisting of him, St-Pierre and Mighty Mouse.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
  12. Post 2 Decision

    Post 2 Decision Red Belt

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    Imagine hating an athlete so much for no apparent reason other than him being considered better than one of your own personal favourite fighters
     
  13. Utahraptor Ostrommaysi

    Utahraptor Ostrommaysi Blue Belt

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    GSP is GOAT in my eyes, because he was the Welterweight champ for so long, and because of the fact that he won the Middleweight belt after a 4 year layoff. Plus he was never busted for PEDs and in fact he was one of the guys who pushed for stronger drug testing the most back in the day.
    But if someone thinks that Jones or Silva is the GOAT I won't argue with them.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2020
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  14. Sirwastealot

    Sirwastealot Red Belt

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    Stupid guy.
     
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  15. TheSpider

    TheSpider Purple Belt

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    Silva, Jones, Fedor > GSP according to the people that matter, pro MMA fighters (not biased Canadians)
     
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  16. eno78

    eno78 White Belt

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    I'm from the UK and I say it's GSP so you're wrong
     
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  17. vik93

    vik93 Blue Belt

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    he's 5'11 and 185 pounds. Very lean. If you don't think a generational athlete can achieve that natty, I feel bad for you because it probably means you've never been near a gym. If you work hard and lay off the hot dogs, that's not nearly close to impossible.

    Comparing GSP to Overeem is ridiculous. Overeem was 265 pounds shredded which is not possible naturally. GSP's body never changed throughout his entire career except for minor differences whereas Overeem's body was ever changing. Overeem failed drug tests, GSP did not. In his late 30's GSP still looks amazing, Overeem looks like a fat, washed up, ex roid head. Who would have thought.

    Nice try though fat boy.
     
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  18. jsbx45

    jsbx45 Brown Belt

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    I have some European blood, and according to Sherdog, that qualifies to claim I am from Europe. I think GSP is the GOAT, and therefor TS, you are wrong.
     
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  19. pankrat

    pankrat Purple Belt

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    You may say it. Do you train or discuss with people who does? Be honest and tell me most around you in UK have GSP as the GOAT.
     
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  20. pankrat

    pankrat Purple Belt

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    Is it French blood?
     
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