GSP and Hendricks beating a purime Fitch looks even better

avenue94 said:
I did. 29-27 fitch. Second round is a swing round and he did more that round as Penn gassed.
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Well, ya didnt watch it with the required attention, Im afraid.

1st Rd: a clear BJ Rd, he [a LW (!)] took Fitch [a legit WW wrassler] down, and even got...his back, threatening with RNC, and he got reversed coz...well...a LW is not supposed to get the body lock against a WW... but Fitch did nuthin´in that Rd.

2nd Rd: toughest Rd to score, but... again... BJ took Fitch down, again got the body lock, again threatened with RNC...and again got reversed for the same reason... But BJ quickly got up, and Fitch spent most of the Rd doin´nuthin, only 'Fitchin´', ie... fencin´...
Conclusion: realistically a BJ Rd, but not much to score tbh
Now, IIRC, BJ opened a cut in Fitch´s head, would have to double check if it was in Rd 1 or 2.

3rd Rd: complete domination by Fitch who took BJ down, BJ could neither mount any offense off his back nor get back to his feet. Fitch clearly mauled him, but I wouldnt call it a 'vicious' GNP.

Reminder: 10-8s back then were like 'unicorns'.

Consequently, even if ya get 'creative' and give Fitch a 10-8 for the last Rd, ya hardly get a ...hobbery.
 
gono btw said:
Well, ya didnt watch it with the required attention, Im afraid.

1st Rd: a clear BJ Rd, he [a LW (!)] took Fitch [a legit WW wrassler] down, and even got...his back, threatening with RNC, and he got reversed coz...well...a LW is not supposed to get the body lock against a WW... but Fitch did nuthin´in that Rd.

2nd Rd: toughest Rd to score, but... again... BJ took Fitch down, again got the body lock, again threatened with RNC...and again got reversed for the same reason... But BJ quickly got up, and Fitch spent most of the Rd doin´nuthin, only 'Fitchin´', ie... fencin´...
Conclusion: realistically a BJ Rd, but not much to score tbh
Now, IIRC, BJ opened a cut in Fitch´s head, would have to double check if it was in Rd 1 or 2.

3rd Rd: complete domination by Fitch who took BJ down, BJ could neither mount any offense off his back nor get back to his feet. Fitch clearly mauled him, but I wouldnt call it a 'vicious' GNP.

Reminder: 10-8s back then were like 'unicorns'.

Consequently, even if ya get 'creative' and give Fitch a 10-8 for the last Rd, ya hardly get a ...hobbery.
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1st Round: Agreed, 10-9 Penn, very good gameplan to take care of Fitch's never-great defensive wrestling, even if he didn't have the cardio to sustain the gameplan.
2nd Round: Fitch controls the first 2:30 of the round and has the more effective striking and grappling, even accounting for the elbow that drew blood. Penn gets back control for about 30 seconds but doesn't attempt the RNC as Fitch has hand control. Fitch finishes the last minute and 15 chipping away on top, Penn gets up spent from the control Fitch imposed that round. So pretty clear round for Fitch on rewatch.
3rd Round: Fitch 10-8, even under the old scoring. No other score is reasonable here as the strike differential was over a 100 shots to 3. I don't care if those 100 shots were slaps or jabs, that differential alone justifies a 10-8 before you even consider that Fitch had top control for nearly the entire round if I remember.

Finally, the fact that some of Penn's cornermen celebrate after Buffer announces a draw should probably tell you whether or not Penn's own corner of yes men thought he did enough to win or draw. I'll also point out that the media decisions were in favor of a Fitch win too.
 
avenue94 said:
1st Round: Agreed, 10-9 Penn, very good gameplan to take care of Fitch's never-great defensive wrestling, even if he didn't have the cardio to sustain the gameplan.
2nd Round: Fitch controls the first 2:30 of the round and has the more effective striking and grappling, even accounting for the elbow that drew blood. Penn gets back control for about 30 seconds but doesn't attempt the RNC as Fitch has hand control. Fitch finishes the last minute and 15 chipping away on top, Penn gets up spent from the control Fitch imposed that round. So pretty clear round for Fitch on rewatch.
3rd Round: Fitch 10-8, even under the old scoring. No other score is reasonable here as the strike differential was over a 100 shots to 3. I don't care if those 100 shots were slaps or jabs, that differential alone justifies a 10-8 before you even consider that Fitch had top control for nearly the entire round if I remember.

Finally, the fact that some of Penn's cornermen celebrate after Buffer announces a draw should probably tell you whether or not Penn's own corner of yes men thought he did enough to win or draw. I'll also point out that the media decisions were in favor of a Fitch win too.
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Hmmm..nah...

1st of all, they were right to celebrate, mainly for 2 reasons:

1> heck... that was an elite legit WW vs a LW.
In the modern era, a fight @ OW where the undersized fighter would be competitive is an anomaly.

2> UFC´s scoring ideology can/could be tricky: fencin´/L&Pin have always tended to be more rewarded,
so inflictin´more damage or havin´more sub attempts didnt automatically grant ya the nod like in Pride, for instance.

Most of all, the 2nd Rd is by no means a clear Fitch Rd (most people either gave Rd 2 to BJ or didnt give the 10-8 in Rd 3, by the way [2 judges gave Rd 2 to BJ]), he did absolutely nuthin´except fencin´, and the real damage inflicted was BJ´s. Then BJ even gets his back for the 2nd time. BJ got then reversed for the reason I explained.

Consequently, even if ya give Rd 3 a 10-8, which is not a lock since they were pretty rare back in the day, this means that the final result, a draw, was a realistic outcome.

Remember: your initial stance was that it was a hobbery. That´s what we´re debatin´here (ya´re entitled to believe that Fitch desserved the victory, no probz...but that´s a different qualitative narrative)..
The fact that Rd 2 was pretty tough 2 score, and that Rd 3 was or wasnt a 10-8, disqualifies this assessment.
 
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gono btw said:
Hmmm..nah...

1st of all, they were right to celebrate, mainly for 2 reasons:

1> heck... that was an elite legit WW vs a LW.
In the modern era, a fight @ OW where the undersized fighter would be competitive is an anomaly.

2> UFC´s scoring ideology can/could be tricky: fencin´/L&Pin have always tended to be more rewarded,
so inflictin´more damage or havin´more sub attempts didnt automatically grant ya the nod like in Pride, for instance.

Most of all, the 2nd Rd is by no means a clear Fitch Rd, he did absolutely nuthin´except fencin´, and the real damage inflicted was BJ´s. Then BJ even gets his back for the 2nd time. BJ got then reversed for the reason I explained.

Consequently, even if ya give Rd 3 a 10-8, which is not a lock since they were pretty rare back in the day, this means that the final result, a draw, was a realistic outcome.

Remember: your initial stance was that it was a hobbery. That´s what we´re debattin´here (ya´re entitled to believe that Fitch desserved the victory, no probz...but that´s a different qualitative narrative)..
The fact that Rd 2 was pretty tough 2 score, and that Rd 3 was or wasnt a 10-8, disqualifies this assessment.
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1. Penn took the fight because he didn't want to fight contenders at LW after getting dominated in the Frankie rematch. The UFC gave Penn this fight because they screwed Fitch out of a title shot and needed to keep him busy/knock him off. I'd say Fitch deserves more respect in this situation, but that's more of a personal preference as, while I respect Penn for sort of trying to move up in weight, he didn't commit. For all the criticisms of Fitch, something no one can make is that he didn't try his hardest to win fights despite being a poor athlete and not very skilled. I can't say the same about Penn at all.

2. I'll admit robbery is strong, but still think Fitch got jobbed. I think scoring round 2 for Penn is overvaluing blood, which isn't the same as effective striking as some people just bleed easily or, like Penn, refuse to wear damage poorly. Giving Penn the round, while not egregious, means valuing 20-30 secs of back control and 4 or 5 decent elbows versus being controlled for the remainder of the round and a couple dozen strikes. Id' also point out that Fitch outstrikes Penn on the feet for the simple reason that he's willing to work harder.

And again, even when this fight took place, scoring a round 10-8 when one fighter lands 3 strikes but gets controlled the entire round and eats over a 100 shots is nothing but highway robbery. Period. It's not that Fitch did a huge amount of work, but more the fact that Penn did effectively nothing. And obviously a moot point, but if that fight happens later that year, it's 5 round main events and Fitch finishes Penn most likely.

You'd probably find these media scores interesting. mmadecisions.com/decision/2345/Jon-Fitch-vs-B.J.-Penn
 
Rory has a lot of mileage. He has been in this game for almost 15 years. Most likely he is sick of it or accumulated enough punishment. It's not an age but damage. It's like how guys in Thailand will retire before 25.
He had his first fight 3 years after GSP debuted. He also didn't have the play safe style GSP had but that is more likely due to the fact that he cannot time his wrestling like GSP. It doesn't mean Rory isn't good but he has to "fight" his opponents more.
 
avenue94 said:
2. I'll admit robbery is strong, but still think Fitch got jobbed. I think scoring round 2 for Penn is overvaluing blood, which
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ahhh...now ya´re talkin´...

"robbery is strong,"

Im OK with ya scorin´it for Fitch, but that´s what I wanted to show here.

In time, I knew about these media decisions: ya can acknowledge that most people either gave Rd 2 to BJ or didnt give the 10-8 in Rd 3, by the way (2 judges gave Rd 2 to BJ)
 
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Not really, just it would not have changed anything if he lost. Fitch had a great ufc run and what happens after can’t change that either way.
 
IGotAHugePeckah said:
Fitch was a beast back then. Rory is not the same fighter he was 4 or 5 years ago. I think that 2nd Lawlor fight really marked the end of his prime.
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It's so unfortunate that a fight like that took that much out of a young man poised to be a successor to GSP. And to have his nose broken twice I think since than making it 3 times total (and who knows how many times before that Lawler fight) I would have to sympathize with him and support his thoughts of retirement because he took so many head shots in that fight you never know if it will cause CTE for him in 10-15 years.
 
ThunderStruck said:
You're telling me that round 3 wasn't a 10-8 for Fitch? I can assess fights way better than you're biased ass.
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shut up, read the thread & educate your bum ass.
Even the other poster I was debatin´ with agreed that the term 'hoberry' was not appropriate.
 
A completely shot BJ Penn went to a majority draw with Fitch. He even took him down and took his back multiple times.

Maia dominated him, Hendricks one punch KO'd him. Fitch was never the #2 guy in the division, that was as a weird myth. He got a lot of mileage out of refusing to fight Koscheck when it mattered.

Fitch then tests positive for steroids in 2015. He refuses to speak about it or address it publicly when directly asked.

Yeah I wonder how this 41 year old in the best shape of his life is having a continued career resurgence.
 
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