Greco Roman vs. Freestyle wrestling

[jsalbrechtsen]

This post is with regard to which style of wrestling has allowed for the easiest and most effective transition into MMA and why. All techniques used in Greco Roman wrestling may also be used in freestyle wrestling. But there are many techniques that are used in freestyle wreslting that cannot be used in Greco Roman wrestling. So since freestyle allows for more techniques, one would think that it would be more applicable to MMA which also allows any all of these techniques. Also, within wrestling, the best athletes tend to go into freestyle wrestling after college rather than Greco Roman.

But if you look at wrestlers that have been successful with MMA, the majority come from a Greco Roman background. 3 of the very top fighters right now have a Greco Roman background - Lindland, Couture, and Henderson. They were all national team members at one point. However, I can't think of a single freestlye national team member that has had that kind of success in MMA.

So my question is why is Greco Roman superior? My theory is that the clinch used in Greco Roman matches is very similar to a muy thai clinch that allows for dirty boxing and effective striking. But still freestyle wrestlers many time will clinch in that same way. Any thoughts?

 

[Goshin-jitsu]

Perhaps it is similar to Jujitsu vs BJJ. BJJ really is a subset of JJ - but they have really honed in and specialized on the ground game. Same type of deal with Grecco? Really specialized in the clinchwork and body throws - which gives them that little edge in MMA.

 

[Goshin-jitsu]

If you can control someone without going to the legs, you are that much more dominant...

 

[jsalbrechtsen]

Do you say that because going to the legs is dangerous in some way? I can see that. Greco guys don't shoot and if you go for a shot and get flattened out it can end badly for you. But right now in the UFC at least there is no knees or kicks to the head if the guy is on the ground, so you don't really get punished for taking a bad shot.

 

[dicekar]

What does this have to do with TUF?

It you can't say which is superior. Any discipline that had alot of more techiques will be weaker than one that has a very few well trained techniques. That is why bjj guys are better on the ground because they dont have to worry about the throws. Its more likely that you will get better at 3 techniques then 15.

Isnt kevin randleman freestyle? he did well against Fedor and would have been better if he knew any bjj.

 

[jsalbrechtsen]

Sorry this doesn't have anything to do specifically with tuff. I apologize if I'm in the wrong place. Randleman never wrestled freestyle or greco. He was a college folkstyle wrestler which that is more similar to freestyle wrestling. But Randleman is an excellent example of someone that was an excellent freestyle type wrestler and while he matched up decently with Fedor (but got submitted) he hasn't had the kind of success against the top talent that the best greco roman guys have. Randleman is the type of guy I am thinking of when I talk about the lack of success of the freestyle guys.

 

[Goshin-jitsu]

Do you say that because going to the legs is dangerous in some way? I can see that. Greco guys don't shoot and if you go for a shot and get flattened out it can end badly for you. But right now in the UFC at least there is no knees or kicks to the head if the guy is on the ground, so you don't really get punished for taking a bad shot.

Nothing wrong with shooting in on the legs, but if you take that away from someone as a tool and then force them to still take people down, it's going to develop their body lock, throwing skills that much more. That's what I was getting at.

 

[reflector]

Most Greco Roman wrestlers start out as freestyle wrestlers. With that Reasoning, I would say Greco Roman is easiest to transition into MMA. You can ankle pick people or use an upper body throw.

 

[JSN]

sherk and hughes are very freestyle-based wrestlers near or at the top of their divisions, and kerr, coleman, trigg, are all successful folk/freestyle wrestlers as well. i think it depends alot on natural athleticism for them. a guy like mark coleman has an increasingly ineffective shot in mma because it's not quick enough. even though he's still a great technical wrestler, he's not explosive enough to take alot of top competition down. sherk, on the other hand, shoots in faster than most people can jab. it's freakish.

greco definitely translated better though because the clinch mastery is both safer to use and more versatile. you can dominate an opponent standing with dirty boxing or take them down and control them without even changing levels.

 

[Stephen Akins]

The answer is that they both can be effective. There are still plenty of single leg, and double leg takedowns in mma. However, when fighters are in a clinch, Greco-Roman wrestling comes into play a lot.

 

[BRONZEBOMBER]

This post is with regard to which style of wrestling has allowed for the easiest and most effective transition into MMA and why. All techniques used in Greco Roman wrestling may also be used in freestyle wrestling. But there are many techniques that are used in freestyle wreslting that cannot be used in Greco Roman wrestling. So since freestyle allows for more techniques, one would think that it would be more applicable to MMA which also allows any all of these techniques. Also, within wrestling, the best athletes tend to go into freestyle wrestling after college rather than Greco Roman.

But if you look at wrestlers that have been successful with MMA, the majority come from a Greco Roman background. 3 of the very top fighters right now have a Greco Roman background - Lindland, Couture, and Henderson. They were all national team members at one point. However, I can't think of a single freestlye national team member that has had that kind of success in MMA.

So my question is why is Greco Roman superior? My theory is that the clinch used in Greco Roman matches is very similar to a muy thai clinch that allows for dirty boxing and effective striking. But still freestyle wrestlers many time will clinch in that same way. Any thoughts?

I think you are drawing a false conclusion.

First of all, virtually all Americans who wrestled in high school wrestled folk style, which is similar to free style, and then they continue to wrestle free style as well as Grec in college. So while Couture, Lindland, and Henderson may have been Olympic caliber in Greco, it's not as if they didn't spend a large portion of their life wrestling folk style and free style as well. Basically they have the added advantage of exposure to both styles.

Second, there have been very many very successful free style collegiate wrestlers in MMA. Matt Hughes, Mark Coleman, Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz, Rashad Evans, Urijah Faber, Rampage Jackson, Josh Burkman, John Fitch, Mark Kerr, Kevin Randleman, Josh Koschek, the list goes on and on and on. If anything there have been more top free style wrestlers than Greco wrestlers in MMA.

 

[LegRider505]

Most Greco Roman wrestlers start out as freestyle wrestlers. With that Reasoning, I would say Greco Roman is easiest to transition into MMA. You can ankle pick people or use an upper body throw.

Ankle picks are illegal in Greco Roman

 

[blanko]

if you rely on greco takedowns you better have a decent striking game.

 

[JSN]

if you rely on greco takedowns you better have a decent striking game.

IMO a great greco game can highly compensate for a lack of good striking. it's much easier to secure a clinch on an opponent with minimum setup than to set up a shot with poor striking.

 

[blanko]

uuh how do you get into clinching range without getting into striking range?

 

[RuleOfSteel2]

Randy Couture, Matt Lindland and Hollywood Henderson also have extensive folkstyle and freestyle backgrounds.
Couture was a 3 time NCAA all-american (folkstyle wrestling). He competed at the world level in greco roman for about 8 years.

Lindland was a national junior college champ and a 2 time ncaa qualifier at Nebraska U. (he was undefeated and seeded #1 as a senior but was upset in the first round at nationals), he was a 2 time USA university national freestyle champion and one year placed 1st at the Pan Am games in freestyle. He competed at the world level in greco for about 8 years.

Henderson, won junior national titles in both freestyle & greco roman (juniors division then was high school aged competitors). In high school he was a multiple state placer in california and wrestled at Arizona St. (and I think at Fullerton St also) in college. He competed at the world level in greco throughout the 1990s.


Overall, you won't find many mma fighters with more extensive wrestling credentials. Of the former wrestlers actually making a living being an mma fighter I can think of only two americans that are on par: Mark Coleman and Mark Kerr. Both won collegiate titles, both were on US world freestyle teams: Coleman was a runner up at the 1991 worlds and 7th at the 1992 olympics. Kerr was on 2 world teams and placed 7th in 1993 or 94. But even with those two, their international careers weren't that long, at the 1996 olympic trials I believe Coleman dropped to a 6th place finish. At that point Coleman's time was past.

There actually have been very few world level competing wrestlers make a serious go at mma and then the ones that do outside of the TeamQuest trio are mostly past their prime.

Furthermore, many of the current fighters being billed as great wrestlers were barely top 20 in college (if that). It's a gigantic leap from being a college starter or even an all-american to being a multiple time world/olympic team member like the Team Quest guys.

 

[EE6_TBOIO_MATb]

Both are extremely relevant for MMA.

The only thing IMO is that free style puts to much emphasis on single & double legs.
These 2 takedowns are the 2 most simple and effective.
But for upper boddy throwns, takedowns and slams, Greco is superior IMO.

I guess it comes down to a matter of taste.

 

[PhxJudoJujitsu]

There has been as many greco roman wrestler who've excelled in MMA as ther have been freestyle wrestlers. Most wrestlers tend to have a background in both.

 

[Rory McDonell]

most North Americans are pretty well versed in both styles, with more of an emphasis on folkstyle and freestyle.

Europe is the opposite, there is a great focus on Greco in a lot of eastern european countries.

 

[juanlawnmower]

You have to realize that the majority of guys who become NCAA All Americans wrestled all 3 styles throughout high school, and of FS and Greco the one they were better at in HS is generally the one they pick for their Olympic dreams.

The guys who have come over to MMA just happened to be good greco guys. The lack of purely freestyle wrestlers is (my guess) just by chance. They would be just as, if not more, successful, because they have a larger arsenal. Go find a freestyle wrestler known for an unstoppable double leg (IIRC one of the 2004 FS wrestlers, maybe Joe Williams), and they will do well in MMA if the rest of their game can match up to it.