Great video on The Linguistics of African American vernacular.

[dontsnitch]

A subculture can create its own grammatical rules. Old English has different syntax to modern English. So modern English speakers are not following 'proper' English then??

That is a point people have made, and there is some truth to it, but I think it's not a perfect analogy to compare Modern English, which is more or less the same world-wide, grammatically speaking, officially taught in schools as a set of rules, to a relatively small and isolated group in the US who speak with a grammatical aberration.

I accept that they may have distinct rules, so within their framework it's proper, but it's not quite apt. To me, they're mostly conjugating verbs "differently" than the rest of the world.

 

[MicroBrew]

That is a point people have made, and there is some truth to it, but I think it's not a perfect analogy to compare Modern English, which is more or less the same world-wide, grammatically speaking, officially taught in schools as a set of rules, to a relatively small and isolated group in the US who speak with a grammatical aberration.

I accept that they may have distinct rules, so within their framework it's proper, but it's not quite apt. To me, they're mostly conjugating verbs "differently" than the rest of the world.

But there are other small groups apart from Ebonics speakers who have their own form of English. Cockney English is a famous example.

 

[voxom]

if you speak ebonics it doesn't necessarily make you dumb. but speaking ebonics definitely makes you sound dumb, regardless of what race you are. i don't know if validating ebonics as a viable dialect and trying to make it something to be proud of like this video seems to be doing is going to be hlpful to anyone who speaks ebonics either.

i can't see any employer respecting the use of ebonics anytime soon, but i can definitely see the use of ebonics becoming a thing of pride that people would want to keep a hold of after viewing this video.

i'd imagine that people would have a higher chance of getting a respectable job if they spoke standard english instead of ebonics or "AAVE"

 

[Rod1]

I wasn't referring to AAVE I was talking about language in general.

I dont think its part of any vernacular language TBH, since vernacular languages are created to be relatively efficient.

 

[Rod1]

But there are other small groups apart from Ebonics speakers who have their own form of English. Cockney English is a famous example.

 

[dontsnitch]

But there are other small groups apart from Ebonics speakers who have their own form of English. Cockney English is a famous example.

Yeah, perhaps in the future it will spread and be more respected.

It's also important to note that Cockney, or most English dialects, are set apart far more by the accent than the grammar. Different words, slang, intonations, are all much different than conjugating verbs differently.

 

[ObsoleteSoul]

If speaking in that manner becomes right, I want to be wrong.

Growing up in the south, this way of speaking was common, but it doesn't make it any less goofy sounding. They sound like black versions of dumb rednecks when they are drunk. You all can have it.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

No, dude, you're wrong. Prescriptivism has no place in the English language. We have no language-regulating academy like Spanish or French. That's part of why English is so dynamic.

AAVE is actually quite complex and not a lesser form of English. It just developed on a different track from the other mainstream forms of American English. It's like saying Scottish English is improper English. If an entire speech community uses language the same way--black Americans in this case--it's not wrong, it's just different. It's essentially a dialect at that point.

The problem with a phrase like "he be working" is that it can mean multiple things. Eventually, you will have to resort to standard English in order to clarify what exactly is meant by "he be working." There is a reason English developed specific rules and one of those reasons is to create clarity and discourage confusion.

 

[IDL]

The problem with a phrase like "he be working" is that it can mean multiple things. Eventually, you will have to resort to standard English in order to clarify what exactly is meant by "he be working." There is a reason English developed specific rules and one of those reasons is to create clarity and discourage confusion.

Yeah that would be my biggest concern, having to do with precision. The more precise the language the more precise the thoughts. That translates into more effective reasoning and problem solving. A sharpened blade.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

The problem with a phrase like "he be working" is that it can mean multiple things. Eventually, you will have to resort to standard English in order to clarify what exactly is meant by "he be working." There is a reason English developed specific rules and one of those reasons is to create clarity and discourage confusion.

Ambiguity like that exists in many languages. English may have a complex verbal system but that is by no means universal. Russian has a very simple verbal system, for example, but certainly no one can claim Russians are scratching their heads all day because there's ambiguity, at least grammatically, between habitual and progressive actions. As in all languages, context is important.

Also, I don't see any ambiguity in "he be working" that I don't see in the standard "he is working." Both could either mean he is at work right this second and is busy, or that he's currently employed.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

Yeah that would be my biggest concern, having to do with precision. The more precise the language the more precise the thoughts. That translates into more effective reasoning and problem solving. A sharpened blade.

AAVE doesn't seen any more imprecise than standard English to me. Japanese doesn't even have a separate present and future tense, for god's sake, but they get along just fine. One of the top languages for scholarly publications every year.

 

[in the]

Actually it's not far from the truth to say that many academic contexts function as their own dialects, often for the purpose of guild protection -- you have to learn the lingo, the speech, to be accepted as somebody who knows what they are doing. Learning distinctive speech patterns is an important way to signal competence. In the case of academics, it's often so intensively tied to showing superiority that it's hard not to be irritated by it. The worst offender probably being post-modern slang, which from the outside appears to be gibberish, but which signals your belonging in a community desperate to signal its special insight. Hilarious to hit repeat on this website, which automatically generates fake postmodern articles according to the discourse rules:

http://www.elsewhere.org/journal/pomo/

 

[IDL]

AAVE doesn't seen any more imprecise than standard English to me. Japanese doesn't even have a separate present and future tense, for god's sake, but they get along just fine. One of the top languages for scholarly publications every year.

Yeah there are many quirks and things across many languages and it's hard to gauge.

 

[in the]

This is because an English teacher is teaching fluency in a different dialect. It's technically correct to say that an AAVE speaker is speaking incorrectly in that context, because an English teacher will teach a common high-level literary dialect, not a specialized ethnic dialect. This isn't because the AAVE speaker is speaking incorrect English, however, it's because they aren't speaking the correct *kind* of English in this context, they aren't following its rules correctly.

Hanging over this is the political idea that it's oppressive and judgmental to require AAVE speakers to learn proficiency in a different dialect of English. And on that front, I have no sympathy--people should be learning completely different languages if possible. Learning a common literate dialect, a much easier and socially vital task, is in no way some tragic imposition. The reverse, it is incredibly provincial and patronizing not to require it.

I've seen this very issue turned into as a symptom of systemic racism from the white supremacist system.

Which is crazy, because I've worked very hard to correct my backwater, redneck vocabulary and wouldn't expect to be treated equally to other prospective candidates who spoke English properly if I sat around saying "fixin' to" and "y'all" and "ain't" with a strong southern accent. There's definitely a discrimination against southern accents in general, which works against me, but it's something I've learned to live with. It also makes people underrate me, which is a double edged sword. No one wants to lose a debate to or get outwitted by someone who sounds even remotely similar to rural Appalachia.

 

[in the]

Which languages do you speak?

English and 133t 5p34k.

 

[Byron Carter]

So this guy is just speaking another, equally enriched language?

Fascinating. And here I thought he was just gutter trash.

 

[in the]

This thread has triggered Weird Al.

 

[in the]

So this guy is just speaking another, equally enriched language?

Fascinating. And here I thought he was just gutter trash.

Or this.