Grappling experts: why is Romanov’s forarm choke not utilized more?

[yetanother]

Generally I'd say there's 3 reasons for this submission working.

1. It's gimmicky and unknown what he's going to do. If you're a blue belt competitor in local competitions, you can get by with gimmicky submissions that may work on a guy once, but never again after they know you. Now he's in the UFC it may not happen again.

2. He's a specialist at that choke and you have to respect it. It's like St Preux with the von flu choke. I've hit it once during training of years in BJJ. But you have to give it to St Preux, he makes it work and is clearly a specialist at it. A lot of people may say von flu isn't high percentage. It isn't for most guys but it is for him.

3. He's way better at grappling than his opponent's. I used to spar a world class black belt whilst I was a blue belt. He sometimes joked around and would do stuff like kimura me in my own guard, tap me by holding mount in a specific way, should pressure into a choke etc. Basically if you're that much better it means you can do almost anything. Lets say I'm sparring a white belt, I can do stupid stuff which is fundamentally questionable, but if the gap is that big it doesn't matter.

Most likely it's a combination of reasons 1 & 2 in my opinion.

He is also huge as fuck and subbed a few fat hw weights.

 

[Zankou]

Paper cutter choke is one of my favorite ... if not my outright favorite ... choke in the gi. It’s set up the same way as this, although you don’t have to underhook the arm to finish.

That said it’s *really* hard to finish without the second collar grip unless your opponent is a total wuss. The side neck pressure is not enough.

So how is this guy finishing it nogi? My guess is that it’s a combination of him being super huge, his opponents being very heavy, him using this maneuver a lot, and them being complacent with the elbow pressure because it doesn’t feel ‘on.’

Longtime readers of this forum might remember my claim that half of jiu jitsu dies from a simple forearm across the throat. It’s horribly underused. So I’m glad to see this guy taking it to another level.

 

[EndlessCritic]

His nickname is king kong for a reason. I have a hard time believing this would work in the lighter weights, but it's clearly effective at HW where guys are less mobile.

 

[Kforcer]

It has certainly been done before. Shinsuke Nakamura done did it to Igor Ignashov, for example. Quite a few wrestlers did it in the early days of the UFC as well.

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

Generally I'd say there's 3 reasons for this submission working.

1. It's gimmicky and unknown what he's going to do. If you're a blue belt competitor in local competitions, you can get by with gimmicky submissions that may work on a guy once, but never again after they know you. Now he's in the UFC it may not happen again.

2. He's a specialist at that choke and you have to respect it. It's like St Preux with the von flu choke. I've hit it once during training of years in BJJ. But you have to give it to St Preux, he makes it work and is clearly a specialist at it. A lot of people may say von flu isn't high percentage. It isn't for most guys but it is for him.

3. He's way better at grappling than his opponent's. I used to spar a world class black belt whilst I was a blue belt. He sometimes joked around and would do stuff like kimura me in my own guard, tap me by holding mount in a specific way, should pressure into a choke etc. Basically if you're that much better it means you can do almost anything. Lets say I'm sparring a white belt, I can do stupid stuff which is fundamentally questionable, but if the gap is that big it doesn't matter.

Most likely it's a combination of reasons 1 & 2 in my opinion.

The great thing about the Von flue is that it is primarily a defence to the guillotine. Nothing gimmicky about applying pressure in order to escape a headlock.

 

[Whitebeltatlife]

The great thing about the Von flue is that it is primarily a defence to the guillotine. Nothing gimmicky about applying pressure in order to escape a headlock.

I agree, perhaps it was unfair to lump it in with the other examples.
I think the von flu is more available in MMA than BJJ though, there's no guard pulling, more guillotine attempts etc. It's frustrating to see good fighters ignore it, especially agianst the cage where it's open season.

 

[yetanother]

Paper cutter choke is one of my favorite ... if not my outright favorite ... choke in the gi. It’s set up the same way as this, although you don’t have to underhook the arm to finish.

That said it’s *really* hard to finish without the second collar grip unless your opponent is a total wuss. The side neck pressure is not enough.

So how is this guy finishing it nogi? My guess is that it’s a combination of him being super huge, his opponents being very heavy, him using this maneuver a lot, and them being complacent with the elbow pressure because it doesn’t feel ‘on.’

Longtime readers of this forum might remember my claim that half of jiu jitsu dies from a simple forearm across the throat. It’s horribly underused. So I’m glad to see this guy taking it to another level.

With the paper cutter one arm is choking the other is keeping them in place.
Will try the underhook version on the mat. OTOH the hws likely have a belly full of pizza and burgers making it harder for them to escape

 

[uchubaco]

Nornally when you think of a forearm choke, what you see is the forearm over the throat and a grip on the shoulder that is next to you or even a closed fist only, so the easy way to defend is to move your head and try the reversal.

What Romanov made was a little bit different, he had an underhook to prevent the reversal, and used that same undehook combined with a Gable grip to lift Pezaos shoulder leaving all the pressure on the neck. The Japanese called this a "Guillotine Choke".

It is brutal if you can catch it, heck even if you use Romanovs variation and put pressure in the face is painful because you put all your weight on a single spot.

 

[Zankou]

With the paper cutter one arm is choking the other is keeping them in place.
Will try the underhook version on the mat. OTOH the hws likely have a belly full of pizza and burgers making it harder for them to escape

With the gi you don’t need the underhook (tho it is the traditional setup) because you can use the collar grip and your elbows to steer the guys face and neck, keeping him in place. I love this approach ... it’s more like a cross choke/paper cutter hybrid. He can’t turn into you because you drive your elbow across the face using the grip for leverage, he can’t turn away because that’s going into the collar pressure. The same control can be maintained from side control to knee on belly through mount. Get that elbow on the throat!

You can’t do that nogi though, so to finish it there you’d have to keep the underhook to put the crank on while keeping him flat.

 

[sb413197]

Yeah that doesn't work on high level guys. Props to him for getting a ufc guy with it though, that's impressive.

It was interesting to see a BJJ brown belt world champ subbed with it by someone with only a few months of BJJ training. Of course we're talking a ginormous size difference and (literally) the world's strongest man with wrestling experience before BJJ, but still...

 

[Sure Dawg]

I think its the way he gets his body behind it...hes a big dude, but it doesnt look like he has alot of control...with it..hes just able to get his weight down hard and fast enough ...as you know you only need 2 to 4 seconds on a tight powerful choke for someone to go out...its kinda like the von flue choke...if u can drop your body weight hard enough and fast enough you might be able sneak it on someone...but an accomplished grappler likely makes the adjustment ..

makes sense, agreed

 

[rmongler]

half of jiu jitsu dies from a simple forearm across the throat

Yep. For myself, i've been singing the virtues of the crossface underhook in particular, in any and all situations for years now. It's super strong and convenient; perfect for circle stack tozi style passing, for instance. You don't even need to get a submission out of it right away, just slap it on and start cooking him. Simply staying in the same place is already making you win and him lose. The control it provides makes it hard for him to stop your from applying pressure, and advancing to even stronger positions to finish; and the pressure it provides, the more preoccupied he is, the harder it is for him to stop your control, to stop you from advancing to even stronger positions to finish.

When your positions are also submissions, this is the esoteric enlightenment of Presh, that transcends the false dichotomy that the more mundane fruitlessly labour under in darkness.

 

[uchubaco]

Hello guys, I made a video explaining how this choke was done and the mechanics…the thing is that it is in Spanish, my mother tongue, but maybe it can interest you, anyways, thanks!!

 

[sb413197]

Hello guys, I made a video explaining how this choke was done and the mechanics…the thing is that it is in Spanish, my mother tongue, but maybe it can interest you, anyways, thanks!!

Nice. I don't speak Spanish fluidly anymore but still enjoyed the video. The connection of the hands under the armpit makes the leverage almost look more like an Ezekial choke. I wonder if you could do this in the Gi, hanging onto the Gi instead at the shoulder instead of connecting the hands, 1-handed?

 

[rmongler]

Nice. I don't speak Spanish fluidly anymore but still enjoyed the video. The connection of the hands under the armpit makes the leverage almost look more like an Ezekial choke. I wonder if you could do this in the Gi, hanging onto the Gi instead at the shoulder instead of connecting the hands, 1-handed?

If anything, i'd say the gi would make it even easier; an elbow across the jaw/neck from side control is a classic pinishing method you can see from old masters of presh.



(3:10)

 

[KnightTemplar]

That was a rape choke lol

Bro, in the post #MeToo era, the correct term is, Struggle-Snuggle Choke