Grappling experts: why is Romanov’s forarm choke not utilized more?

The Mookster said:
He made the set up for the choke look quite easy and it looked incredibly effective. It appeared to be a blood choke. Questions:
1) Do you need to just cut off one carotid artery for a blood choke or did the opponents body/floor cut off the second?

2) Also, it doesn’t seem like a choke that takes a lot of energy While seemingly zaps the shit out of your opponent. Why don’t you see this more often? Is it easy to counter or escape? Was it just the fact that Romanov as humongous as why it worked?
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been grappling for a while, never had to tap from that, not even from much bigger guys, but i HAVE had to change the position or i would have had to tap. using his free right arm to shove the elbow toward his left shoulder, while ducking his head toward his right hip has worked for me every single time so its hard to believe he couldn't escape when he just laid there doing nothing. That being said this guy has a bunch of wins from this choke apparently? So he's gotta be doing something right/different.
 
The Mookster said:
He made the set up for the choke look quite easy and it looked incredibly effective. It appeared to be a blood choke. Questions:
1) Do you need to just cut off one carotid artery for a blood choke or did the opponents body/floor cut off the second?

2) Also, it doesn’t seem like a choke that takes a lot of energy While seemingly zaps the shit out of your opponent. Why don’t you see this more often? Is it easy to counter or escape? Was it just the fact that Romanov as humongous as why it worked?
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Its a low level move....it helps hes so big...but guys who know how to grapple or atleast try to grapple back wont fall for that...theres not much control on that type of move so anyone whos actually active on the ground likely avoids this...or shifts the arm off the artery

The Ezekiel choke is a better option from that position more control
 
Sure Dawg said:
been grappling for a while, never had to tap from that, not even from much bigger guys, but i HAVE had to change the position or i would have had to tap. using his free right arm to shove the elbow toward his left shoulder, while ducking his head toward his right hip has worked for me every single time so its hard to believe he couldn't escape when he just laid there doing nothing. That being said this guy has a bunch of wins from this choke apparently? So he's gotta be doing something right/different.
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I think its the way he gets his body behind it...hes a big dude, but it doesnt look like he has alot of control...with it..hes just able to get his weight down hard and fast enough ...as you know you only need 2 to 4 seconds on a tight powerful choke for someone to go out...its kinda like the von flue choke...if u can drop your body weight hard enough and fast enough you might be able sneak it on someone...but an accomplished grappler likely makes the adjustment ..
 
The forearm choke... ugh.

Off the top of my head, here are the fights I can recall where a fight was won via a forearm choke:

Mo Smith/Cikatic
Eugene Jackson/Ronald Jhun
Some random jobber/Badr Hari
Shammy/Brian Johnston
Machida/Michael McDonald

Three of those fights involved pro kickboxers making their MMA debuts, the other two very strong men against guys with basically no game off of their backs back in the dark ages of MMA. Haven't seen one successfully applied in about 15 years or so and there's a good reason for it... if you have a clue what's going on on the mat it's just a painful nuisance that you can avoid by pushing the man on top's elbow to one side while shrimping to that same side's hip. It's basically just a crossface/pain compliance move done to make your opponent uncomfortable and/or distract them from what you're actually trying to do. To get subbed by this, you have to be absolutely oblivious to what's transpiring and do absolutely nothing to counter (which is what happened last night). The fact that we got to see one in this day and age on MMA's biggest stage says so much about the devolution of your average HW's skillset.

In terms of most embarrassing ways to be subbed, this is it.
 
Marcos is actually a black belt in BJJ for what its worth. It's potentially worth reminding us that all black belts aren't equal, and sometimes it is hard for a black belt to not get repeatedly subbed by purple belts.
 
TRYHARD 2001 said:
The forearm choke... ugh.

Off the top of my head, here are the fights I can recall where a fight was won via a forearm choke:

Mo Smith/Cikatic
Eugene Jackson/Ronald Jhun
Some random jobber/Badr Hari
Shammy/Brian Johnston
Machida/Michael McDonald

Three of those fights involved pro kickboxers making their MMA debuts, the other two very strong men against guys with basically no game off of their backs back in the dark ages of MMA. Haven't seen one successfully applied in about 15 years or so and there's a good reason for it... if you have a clue what's going on on the mat it's just a painful nuisance that you can avoid by pushing the man on top's elbow to one side while shrimping to that same side's hip. It's basically just a crossface/pain compliance move done to make your opponent uncomfortable and/or distract them from what you're actually trying to do. To get subbed by this, you have to be absolutely oblivious to what's transpiring and do absolutely nothing to counter (which is what happened last night). The fact that we got to see one in this day and age on MMA's biggest stage says so much about the devolution of your average HW's skillset.

In terms of most embarrassing ways to be subbed, this is it.
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This post tells it like it is, I agree.

Also since de Lima is a BJJ black belt (isn’t everyone from Brazil these days?) and isn’t new to MMA, you kinda expect him to know better. I think he didn’t really realize how much danger that position put him in and then he was out like a light. It was weird, but that was a good one for Romanov. He is obviously heavy as shit on top and knows how to use his weight better than most.
 
Hellowhosthat said:
It helped that De Lima pretty much just laid there and let it happen, too.

He isn't pulling that off on a decent level grappler, I don't think.
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Yeah I think he just didnt realise the threat immediately, most guys would be turning to one side and pushing the elbow to the same side really quickly.

It was also a matter of complacency and too little too late plus Romanov is a big dude who can apply a lot of pressure
 
The Half Blood Prince said:
Yeah I think he just didnt realise the threat immediately, most guys would be turning to one side and pushing the elbow to the same side really quickly.

It was also a matter of complacency and too little too late plus Romanov is a big dude who can apply a lot of pressure
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Yeah, it's a rare example of a sub at UFC level that I actually don't think I'd have been caught in (though I'm sure Romanov would have subbed me with something else about three seconds later).
 
TriangleMonkey said:
I used that exact same choke to win an amateur fight from full-mount in early ‘07. I was more chest-to-chest so that it was “hidden”. My own corner and everyone in the building including the ref didnt even know what he was tapping my back from.

It was a boss move to be done at the UFC level and that HW has legit skills grappling overall.

edit: the underhook is crucial, and the Gable grip to provide tons of leverage across the throat. Only the mat behind the head .
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this is a key point in my opinion. the way he applied the choke was much more efficient than most other guys who just use shoulder pressure and/or weight and shove their forearm in the guy's neck. he had an underhook on De Lima's left arm, and had like a half nelson applied while simultaneously applying the choke. it was like De Lima was trapped in a modified crucifix while getting choked.
 
Hellowhosthat said:
It helped that De Lima pretty much just laid there and let it happen, too.

He isn't pulling that off on a decent level grappler, I don't think.
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So basically he could pull it off against the entire HW devision
 
Pancake Sprawl said:
this is a key point in my opinion. the way he applied the choke was much more efficient than most other guys who just use shoulder pressure and/or weight and shove their forearm in the guy's neck. he had an underhook on De Lima's left arm, and had like a half nelson applied while simultaneously applying the choke. it was like De Lima was trapped in a modified crucifix while getting choked.
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Yes!

A lot of people saying it wouldnt work on “good guy” but when you are gassed, and trying to recover off your back, you are vulnerable to this one. Thank you for explaining it more like a half-nelson because thats exactly where the leverage comes from, there definitely a fulcrum point and not so much a body weight crush.

I got mine off when my opponent went hard and blew his wad. Lima was a bit gassed and couldn’t use explosive movements to shake him off or create some space.
 
RustyShacleford said:
I'm no expert, but like most dominant top-position techniques, it seems like it requires doing a lot of little things right to maintain control. Those things, like maintaining balanced pressure, are hard to see, so it looks easy when guys do it right, but there's a reason not everyone can do it.
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This, normally tying up both hands like that on the upper body makes the easy counter just bridging really hard and rolling...

But at the same time Romanov is making a ton of tiny adjustments (like the elevation of opponent's left shoulder) that make it more difficult to "just bridge and roll".

At the same time, you need to bridge and roll before he settles into that.

This forces him to either get rolled, or disengage an arm enough to post on it.
 
Generally I'd say there's 3 reasons for this submission working.

1. It's gimmicky and unknown what he's going to do. If you're a blue belt competitor in local competitions, you can get by with gimmicky submissions that may work on a guy once, but never again after they know you. Now he's in the UFC it may not happen again.

2. He's a specialist at that choke and you have to respect it. It's like St Preux with the von flu choke. I've hit it once during training of years in BJJ. But you have to give it to St Preux, he makes it work and is clearly a specialist at it. A lot of people may say von flu isn't high percentage. It isn't for most guys but it is for him.

3. He's way better at grappling than his opponent's. I used to spar a world class black belt whilst I was a blue belt. He sometimes joked around and would do stuff like kimura me in my own guard, tap me by holding mount in a specific way, should pressure into a choke etc. Basically if you're that much better it means you can do almost anything. Lets say I'm sparring a white belt, I can do stupid stuff which is fundamentally questionable, but if the gap is that big it doesn't matter.

Most likely it's a combination of reasons 1 & 2 in my opinion.
 
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