Grappling as a Olympic sport!

Mind that FILA GRAPPLING RULES had MAJOR change sinze june 2008.

If you read the old rules, take a look at the new one .

Now are very simple and are wrote to a mma point of view that put enphasy in being on top.

(I've been at a referee meeting this weekend for the italian national championship that will held next month)
 
USA Grappling said:
ADCC didnt want to make the changes required to become a sport recognized by the IOC and I dont mean rules.

FILA is making changes to the rules and just released them recently so they will be used at the Worlds. I think the changes they made were more BJJ oriented and may cover some of the issues people had with the ruleset.
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Cool. Was their issue with drug testing or amateur/professional status things? I hate politics so much.

What's the link to those rules?
 
they had issues with those and more. go to Fila Wrestling : site de la Fdration Internationale des Luttes Associes - Accueil and go to the grappling section for the regulations.

Last i had heard is that there were about 40 countries that will be particpating at the Worlds in Switzerland this year. Each one probably wont have full teams but 40 countries representing is double than last year and will include Brazil and Japan.
 
Thanks. I just read the rules. The "Basic Rules for Scoring Table" don't seem to be the same as the "International Grappling Regulation Rules." Or maybe I'm misunderstanding them. I am a little confused: is a takedown to full/open guard 1 or 2 points? What about a sweep to full/open guard? Are escapes to standing 1 point? Is pulling guard a takedown? What is the definition of butt scooting, exactly?

So just to make sure I understand correctly:

1pt - Escape, reversal, or sweep from the bottom to neutral (standing) or to guard.

1pt - Takedown to half guard. What about full guard?

2pt - Takedown to dominate control position (side control, mount, back)

2pt - Side control dominate control position

3pt - Throw into danger position

3pt - Full Mount dominate control position

4pt - Back mount dominate control position

And there are no advantages, correct?

Sorry for asking so many questions. These rules look simplier, which I like. I like awarding points for dominate control positions too. And the posibility of both gi and no-gi events. And LOL at the guy with the black eye in the picture of back control restart. ;D
 
I attendet FILA referee seminar, ill try explain few things that I did not forgot. (my english sucks so sorry about that).

Everytime MUST be a takedown, even if opponents falls, or one pull guard, everytime will points be awarded to TOP man. Even if I shoot and opponents sprawls and end on top, he will get 2 points. Higher amplitude - more points, like in wrestling, except takedowns that include grabing the legs - then its just 2 pts no matter how high you trow him.

Sweeps and reversals are 2 points. (sweeps are done from guards (duh...), reversals can be from bottom side mount to top side mount. So you get points for reversal and plus points for side control, if you manage to revers your oponent.
There are some "advantages" for atempts of submissions. they are scored at the end of fight.
 
IMHO rules could be better, I dont like the fact that every time must be a takedown, guys that have weak takedowns will always start with 0 - 2 points. And i dont like points for revesals and escapes, and i dont like rule at all LOL
I think that referees will have too much influences on how fight goes (too many points) and that can never be good.
 
I think there's a big divide between people who see takedowns as a major part of grappling and those who see grappling as mainly ground work. The former see no problem in leaving one aspect of grappling (the ground) for another (stand up), the latter see going from ground to stand up as going from the major focus to a minor focus. There's probably no reasonable way to continue the argument, as the base premises are so different.

And yes, if your stand up is better than your opponents, its much more efficient to try for side control by standing up and going for a takedown than by going on in groundwork, just as its much more efficient for a boxer like Ali to go for a knock out by moving away from an in-fighting brawler like Frazier rather than staying in close and slugging it out once they're in in-fighting range. Maximum efficiency comes when you match your strength against their weakness, not when you match your strength against their strength.

CBJJ rules emphasize groundwork (ie what they consider to be the important part of grappling). That's fine and there's a place in the olympics for a sport like that. But its definitely not grappling neutral if you consider standing as part as grappling - you'll note just about every wrestler and judoka points that out. Even if it were pure submission grappling, in theory it should be possible to gain a submission by throwing someone often enough that you break them down (it's happened, in the past competitors have gotten collapsed lungs from throws in international level judo, though that's much less likely with the soft ippons given now, and its the approach Kimura initially took against Helio because it had worked for him in the past, though he gave up because of soft mats). Right now the only rule set that is close to neutral on grappling is, curiously enough MMA, in which both submissions and takedowns are important.

But this is something we're never going to agree on, so there's probably not much point in continuing it. In terms of the main topic of the thread, the IOC has requirements for a sport to become part of the olympics, and in a decade, if BJJ keeps growing as it is, there's no reason it couldn't become part of it. Hopefully it won't be as harmful to BJJ as it was to judo.

Afrofeet said:
IMHO rules could be better, I dont like the fact that every time must be a takedown, guys that have weak takedowns will always start with 0 - 2 points. And i dont like points for revesals and escapes, and i dont like rule at all LOL
I think that referees will have too much influences on how fight goes (too many points) and that can never be good.
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One solution would be to start competition matches from the knees, just as most club rolling does. There are some judo tournaments that have a ne-waza division (for instance we do it locally) in which contestants start on their knees, and aren't allowed to stand up. In judo its mainly old guys who take part, and its one all weight division in a tournament full of regular judo divisions, but it can be entertaining ... and interestingly enough, often the smaller guys win. More often than in the standing - weight seems to make less difference in ne-waza than tachi-waza.
 
georgejjr: Why do you consider CBJJ rules favoring groundwork? Nobody bothers explaining how they favor groundwork. Starting from the knees would favor groundwork over standing. CBJJ does not allow this. I competed in all four sports before (wrestling/judo/BJJ/nogi), they are more balanced than you give them credit.

Afrofeet: When was that seminar? It doesn't make sense that takedowns to guard would be 2 points, but takedowns to half guard 1 point. You linked to the "Basic Rules for Scoring Table" created in February 2008 according to the PDF's properties. That document contradicts the document, the "International Grappling Regulations" which is dated June 2008:

http://www.fila-wrestling.com/images/documents/grappling/rglmt_grap_en.pdf
 
if there's judo and "grappling" there sure as hell better be bjj
 
The right document is the complete rules one, the basic rules is still the old one (probably they forgot to update the new one)

I'll try to explain the rules (But i've studied them in italian so maybe i could mispell some name).

Every rules represent that if you are in a position where the opponent is striking you and you can reverse and be in a position to strike him, you are awarded point.

Point are awarder ONLY after 3 secs of controll

Takedown to guard-halfguard = 1 point
Takedown to dominant position = 2 point
Throw to the bsholder/upperback (hip throw as well as a pickup ) double leg = 3 point + point for dominant position if there is one

Reversal = 1 point awarded in ANY case one man is in the bottom reverse his position even if he is under the mount and do an bridge, or has the back taken and go on top inside the guard or you try an armbard from the mount , he defend and ended up being on top (after the submission is completely escaped after 3 secs he is awarded the point).

Side mount 2 point
full mount 3 point
back mount 4 point

You can take point only improving your posizion so sm -->fm ---> bm = 2+3+4 while bm-->fm--->sm only the 4 point of the backmount


If you buttscott , avoiding the stand up referee call you "action", if you don't stand up, he will give you a penalty (first 0 point to the opponent, second 1 point, third 2 point ,fourth disqualification).

The same if you are on the ground and someone stand up without trying to pass guard or stalling .


If the fight is stopped (go out of the mat, injuries, illegal action) is restard in either:

- neutral position (standing) if they were both standing or there wasn't the 3 secs of controll on the ground

- Open guard if the athlese were on the ground in a non-dominant position

- side mount if the athletes were in SM or FM

- back controll if the atletes were in backmount


Illegal action


1st 1 point penalty, 2nd 2 point penalty, 3rd disqualification.
If you injuries with an illegal action your opponent your are disqualified

- throw or spike to head and neck
- doing Ricco rodriguez to garcia slam (you jump to the ground while your opponent is on your back)
- slam
- throw with lock (like wakigatame throws)
- using finger to choke (like silva rape choke)
- wristlock with both your hand touching of his hand (1 one 1, even with a figure four controll is fully legal, also the mano de vaca of bjj is legal)
- attack the chin (like to make a torsion of the neck)
- hand on the face
- grip the uniform
- heel hook and inverted heel hook, crucifix (the neck crack ones, see the photo), Full nelson and other cervical lock like Can opener)

The twister for examples is legal as is a spine lock.
 
Frodo said:
georgejjr: Why do you consider CBJJ rules favoring groundwork? Nobody bothers explaining how they favor groundwork. Starting from the knees would favor groundwork over standing. CBJJ does not allow this. I competed in all four sports before (wrestling/judo/BJJ/nogi), they are more balanced than you give them credit.

Afrofeet: When was that seminar? It doesn't make sense that takedowns to guard would be 2 points, but takedowns to half guard 1 point. You linked to the "Basic Rules for Scoring Table" created in February 2008 according to the PDF's properties. That document contradicts the document, the "International Grappling Regulations" which is dated June 2008:

http://www.fila-wrestling.com/images/documents/grappling/rglmt_grap_en.pdf
Click to expand...

I see....this is old document, rules are changed, this one is right, check it out
http://cro-wrestling.hr/pdf/FILA_Grappling_rules-ENG.pdf

Simple - takedowns 2 points, throws with higher amplitude 3 (over the hip) and 4 over the shoulder.
side mount 3, mount 4, back mount 5 points.
 
Frodo said:
No, I want style-agnostic rules. CBJJ rules are actually very agnostic towards strategy, as long as you are engaging the person and working for improving your position in order to achieve a submission then they don't mind. The only reason guard pulling is not penalized in CBJJ rules is because you have a much greater chance of submitting a guy from bottom guard than top guard. You want rules which allow people to just learn takedowns and nothing else. You want style vs style fights. I want modern, complete grappling matches. CBJJ is far from perfect, but it is much better than your idea.



Probably, though more for political reasons. The ADCC members of their grappling commettee left FILA, actually. Other negatives include their attitude towards not awknoledging any other set of rules for grappling is annoying (they act like they were the first to make a set of rules for the sport), and their strange rules which came about only after season of ISWA (though they say they were in existance for 3 years... :rolleyes:). I didn't hear of any gi grappling rule set. I'm interested in seeing those rules, btw. Got a link to them?
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What exactly is my IDEA?
You are way off base when it comes to what your perception of me and my thoughts are.

I also want a ruleset that balances ALL ranges of grappling. Not primarily focusing on one range or the other.

From your posts my opinion is you higly favor the matwork, guess what? So do I?

On the other hand If an athlete cannot hold another one down to submit him or gain dominant position then it is the athletes fault, some rule should not make that mandatory IMO.....

That being said action is key and dont assume I am in favor of Fleeing or stalling either.

I will use folkstyle wrestling as an example simply because they do not penalize feet or ground as long as you are working.

In Folkstyle wrestling even though there are no subs, in theory 2/3 of each match or more could take place on the ground.

You know this as a former wrestler yourself. The 1st period starts on the feet, the 2nd and 3rd start on the mat.

If the man in the control position decides to release the man on the bottom so beit. It is then up to the man that USED to be on the bottom to be able to create a grappling position that is advantagous to him, not hope that some rule will favor him. As it is the bottom man does score a point when being released to his feet and he can make his opponent pay if he can then take him down earning 2 more points. At that point he now has the a good opportunity to score more points and keep his opponent in trouble.


Going back to grappling I dont think that these rules are harmful at all to GRAPLLING per se.

I do see and acknowledge your point that wrestlers or Judoka may take advantage of these rules but as you know quite well fighers in all styles can and will use rules to their advantage.

You are contending I want to see a wrestling match, no I dont. There are plenty of those out there.

I want to see a grappling match where hopefully each competitor is capapble of grappling in all ranges.
 
Ugh. I prefer it when they have "catch points" ala Shooto, NAGA, Combat Wrestling. Admittedly, catch-points can get confusing when there are torrid exchanges of near submissions, but generally, the idea in most instances of that rule has been--far as I know--that an opponent focusing only on escaping the submission is part of scoring the point and not immediately going on the offensive having escaped.
 
I think the rules I have seen them on this topic seem fair.

It rewards position and advanceing as well as escaping/reversing and takedowns.
 
Frodo said:
georgejjr: Why do you consider CBJJ rules favoring groundwork? Nobody bothers explaining how they favor groundwork. Starting from the knees would favor groundwork over standing. CBJJ does not allow this. I competed in all four sports before (wrestling/judo/BJJ/nogi), they are more balanced than you give them credit.

Afrofeet: When was that seminar? It doesn't make sense that takedowns to guard would be 2 points, but takedowns to half guard 1 point. You linked to the "Basic Rules for Scoring Table" created in February 2008 according to the PDF's properties. That document contradicts the document, the "International Grappling Regulations" which is dated June 2008:

http://www.fila-wrestling.com/images/documents/grappling/rglmt_grap_en.pdf
Click to expand...

From the CBJJ web rules website:

Holding the opponent, standing up, or any position designed to stall. Noticing this the referee will request that 20 seconds be marked and say
 
Afrofeet said:
I see....this is old document, rules are changed, this one is right, check it out
http://cro-wrestling.hr/pdf/FILA_Grappling_rules-ENG.pdf

Simple - takedowns 2 points, throws with higher amplitude 3 (over the hip) and 4 over the shoulder.
side mount 3, mount 4, back mount 5 points.
Click to expand...

Um, your document was updated Jan 2008, while the one I linked to was updated June 2008. Are you sure YOU aren't using the older rules?
 
Frodo said:
OK article, but some of it doesn't make sense!!!









Wow, just wow. Why do journalists have a fixation on making wrestling and grappling seem like the gayest sports in the universe? :rolleyes: That comment that grappling is less technical than wrestling is just idiotic as well. I've heard that some wrestlers are close minded about with remarks like that. It is just annoying for me how the public and other wrestlers have misconceptions about grappling, judo, and BJJ.
Click to expand...

at least there's good intentions
 
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