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Grappling also start standing... why negating the ground makes me a lesser grappler?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by migeru29, Sep 5, 2018.

  1. migeru29 Brown Belt

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    Lets put it like this... you have a genius ground grappler and you have a genius standup grappler but with just "great" ground grappling but not "elite" level. If the genius "standup" grappler doesn't want to go to the ground and the "genius" ground grappler cannot take him down at all.... does the "standup" grappler is a lesser grappler? WHY? I know in the BJJ world the answer is obvious (yes he is a lesser grappler) but please be open minded and explain WHY if after all grappling start standing and TDD, take-downs and throws are a HUGE part of the art of grappling.
     
  2. andrewm2211 Orange Belt

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    I think yes, because if they can’t do what the other won’t do, how will they even?
     
  3. NewS Blue Belt

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    Are you saying Shaub destroyed Cyborg?
     
  4. efficientjudo Orange Belt

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    I would say its because you cannot win a grappling contest just being defensive. Obviously in an MMA scenario, it can be beneficial to use this strategy when you have superior striking, but it pure grappling it doesn't make sense.
     
  5. yetanother Black Belt

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    Schaub was afraid of takedowns too, he is generally a cowardly bitch.
     
  6. biscuitsbrah Red Belt

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    ???
    If the standup grappler is so superior on the feet then he better repeatedly takedown/throw/slam his opponent and then stand back up.

    I definitely don’t believe in pulling guard to start a grappling match though
     
  7. FightGuyOpenMind Purple Belt

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    I think it's because grappling exposure in the west was largely based on what they've seen or experienced with folkstyle wrestling or bjj. Pins, and most submissions happen on the ground. Greco Roman is not big in the west, nor is Judo. Both of these have a heavy focus of clinch work, and throws.

    Stand up grappling is the most important overall in my view because it is the entry into finishing the fight. "100% of fights start standing". When I say overall I'm referring to self defense, and street applications as well. With a padded mat surviving stand up grappling is more likely, and the fight will transition to groundwork (newaza, rolling). This is not always the case everywhere else.

    Have you ever been thrown or seen throws on concrete? lol It doesn't give, and you absorb all of the impact. Being rendered unable to fight from a throw or slam on concrete is a huge possibility. Why would I follow you to the ground if I can throw you, and let you be at a disadvantage? If you choose to use the energy to get back up, I can throw or slam you again until you get the point. Being tossed is mentally debilitating. If you don't know how to tactically stand up, I can uppercut or hook you to sleep. The stand up grappler is only a "lesser grappler" depending on the context. How much bjj are you going to do on a club or a bar floor when a brawl breaks out? I feel everything has to be put in context.
     
  8. zeli_papa Orange Belt

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    Great post, it's all about the context, in general I believe every bjj guy should at least know the basics of stand up grappling to even be able to apply their bjj if needs be whether it's self defence or competition
     
  9. catchwrestle Yellow Belt

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    Well said. I'm a decent grappler. I've trained in some MMA camps where guys could mop the floor with me once we hit the ground, but I could slam the crap out of them or pound them against the fence using stand up grappling to put them at a great disadvantage. It's all about context. Ask the guy getting suplexed how he feels about stand up grappling. Slams are one of wrestling greatest weapons but are not allowed in many formats, so they tend to get overlooked
     
  10. FightGuyOpenMind Purple Belt

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    Thanks, and I agree 100%.
     
  11. FightGuyOpenMind Purple Belt

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    Very true. Just thinking about getting suplexed makes me dizzy. lol Slams are regulated. Take away the consideration for safety, and we'll see how many grappling matches actually end in knockout or being unable to continue from standing techniques. Totally agree.
     
  12. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    If you can't get a person to the ground your BJJ is ineffective. A lot of sub only Grapplers have false confidence bc they are facing ppl who want it to the ground.
     
  13. DatCutman Blue Belt

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    Great, now I want a wrestling format where the victory condition is a KO instead of a pin.
     
  14. FightGuyOpenMind Purple Belt

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    Rampage could teach a seminar on it lol.
     
  15. RyanR Black Belt

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    TC I get what you’re saying but a lot of people will disagree with you here.
     
  16. migeru29 Brown Belt

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    Of course that's the point of starting threads in sherdog lol
     
  17. winterbike Green Belt

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    So is your boxing/judo if you can't catch me. Have you been jogging lately?
     
  18. Alech33 Yellow Belt

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    What?
     
  19. DatCutman Blue Belt

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    His premise is that he can run away (jogging) to keep you from stand up grappling him, ergo by the logic of this thread, a valuable tactic.

    Though it's silly. The standing man is more than willing to engage the ground-grappler if he stands, and spike him on his head. The jogger, however, will never engage regardless of circumstance, nor is there any chance of victory.

    I think bjj guys look at "grappling tournaments" (i.e., bjj tournaments) where the stander doesn't start doing bjj as stalling. However, that's because it's a bjj event, and frankly bjj is still in its early 20's trying to figure out what it is. Is it a guard based supportive game? A submission only focuses game? Or is it a striking-free fight simulator? You see these three personalities all the time (Gi IBJJF'er, EBI follower, or the Old school guys). For the first two, there is little value for a takedown, so of course the stand up guy is a loser. For the third, he is going to say you GOTTA be good at both. Shit, Mario sperry, my favorite OG, trained wrestling and thought guard was unfavorable, and called most guards bullshit for vale tudo.

    Now that I think about it, there's a fourth personality since Valley tutu has essentially cease to exist, and it's the mma jits crowd. They at least have the common decency to recognize stand-up is an important part of things, but then you get the occasional desperation move of the guy who lays down and tries to wave his opponent into his guard. We saw how well that worked for Ryan Hall vs sol whatshisface, but imagine how more disastrous that game plan that would have been under valetudo rules where you could jump on somebody's head.

    The existence of the mma guy polarizes old school guys. Hell, there's really a fifth category of "street jits", which can become ridiculous (bear hug defenses? Why?). The street jits'ers take a weird stance in my experience that closed guard equalizes takedowns, even though helio graciela did takedowns all the time, and lost to a judoka who rattled his brain with an earth shattering throw and shoulder locked him.

    Which of these five "ground based grappling" perspectives you take will change the view of standing v ground. You have like a 2/5 chance of them saying standup is of equal value.

    At the end of the day, they're all just rulesets and games we play, and we choose what games we play based on enjoyment. Nothing more or less. If you enjoy doing sport more so than street self-defense, you'll have the resulting ideologies. It be great if we could take all grappling systems and techniques mash them all together and do a top-down best practices approach. But unfortunately none of us are mr. Spock and we choose what we do based more so on enjoyment then perfection. Fucking Human Condition, am I right?
     
  20. yetanother Black Belt

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    In BJJ I would say very few.
     

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