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Gracie Jiu-jitsu?

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SAMURAI SPIRIT, Jan 25, 2020.

  1. SAMURAI SPIRIT Blue Belt

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    How many people have trained in the old school "Gracie Jiu-jitsu" with emphasis on strike evasion, closing the gap and ground'n'pound? From what I have observed, those guys will not do well in a modern BJJ competition but there are so many posts about pure BJJ guys who claim that they lack confidence to defend themselves in a real fight. I doubt it would be the same if they trained in the Jiujitsu that Gracie family practices.

    Any thoughts? If someone has trained in both GJJ and BJJ then Id love to hear from you.
     
  2. lechien Gold Belt

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    You got that wrong.
    They are many post about GJJ people that claims that pure BJJ people lack confidence to defend themselves in a real fight.

    To be honest, you don't see pure BJJ people spending their time denigrating GJJ like the way GJJ people always having to put others down.

    Like what Renzo said about his cousins Renee and his bro: "we are all selling fishes and their fishes are not that fresh".

    Lol
     
  3. tekkenfan Banned Banned

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    yes i feel all jj guys should do this so at least they know how to deal with strikes on the ground


    i mean it isnt rocket science lol obviously if a school focused 100% on a certain sport rule set their guys will do better than others under that rule set lol

    but i can tell you this

    2 decades ago up to the last decade tons of blue belts use to post stories where they had to defend themselves with jj and were very successful u hardly see it today instead u see and hear about purples browns even getting koed or butt flopping trying to do some leg lock while getting punches and kicked in head

    i feel sport has to be put in check cause sometimes you an get a bit delusional i love combat sports and fighting i think at least once a week guys should at least put on some mma gloves and do some striking from the closed guard and learn how to fight from it on bottom
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2020
  4. tekkenfan Banned Banned

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    thats wrong man u see a lot more guys today dissing what they call "old school jj" as if the mount is a inferior position its weird tho how like decade ago de la riva was considered new school stuff now lots think de la riva is a part of bjj basics today so im curious as to see in another decade what will be considered basic jj
     
  5. lechien Gold Belt

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    De la Riva also known as the jello guard is really old school and was demonstrated by late Carlson Gracie in his book.
    He even shows how you can use it for vale tudo by using the non de la Riva hook and kick the dude in his face.
     
  6. tekkenfan Banned Banned

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    so why was it such a big thing by ricardo in the 90s? weird

    i first remember hearing about de la riva guard n 2007 but didnt really use it see much till 2010 i guess cause the first few times it always revolved getting the deep hook on the hip which wasnt easy t get wasnt much from it
     
  7. lechien Gold Belt

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    Back to the topic
    Gracie jiu Jitsu is a state of mind or more an approach to training.

    For example, I just re watched Chris haueter dvd. Spelling could be wrong but he is one of the dirty dozen.

    When he teach the standing guard break, he mentions that he is not too concern if uke grab his leg when he stands up.

    The reason is that he can kneel back and therefore trap the arm and he can now punch the uke in his face as his arm is trapped and he is left open for strikes.

    Like I said, he is more like a state of mind by using techniques always considering if you are left open for "free shots".

    I trained with pro MMA fighters and they do have the same way of thinking.

    They would absorbs and learn any techniques but they are always concerned of what would work in MMA due to strikes.

    Basically if you want to train for fighting, you need to watch out for any techniques that would compromise you when you do a technique and leave yourself open to strikes.
     
  8. lechien Gold Belt

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    I was surprised to see it in the Carlson Gracie book and how he utilise it for future fighting.

    My original Brazilian instructor did not know anything about De la Riva in 2003.

    But he went back home for a short trip and start showing that "new" guard. It would have been around the 2005 or 2006.
    But he was also from Floripa ala floripianis so not sure how long it took for techniques to transfer from Rio to Florida.

    My instructor was a direct student from a black belt under rickson Gracie so there were no much networking with carlson Gracie in any ways.
     
  9. SBC Purple Belt

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    I’m sorry, but I still fail to see how how someone with even rudimentary BJJ skills wouldn’t be able to handle themselves in a street fight. It’s nothing more than pure propaganda if you ask me. In most cases when in a street fight the person who through their drunken stupor decides to merely head lock and flop their way to the ground wins. If you cannot do this after some basic training well, I think the problem may be you and not whether the Jiu-Jitsu you practiced was Gracie or not.
     
  10. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    It happens a lot...

    developing basic fighting instincts shouldn’t be that hard for a sport person, but some training is needed. The biggest concern is how to take the fight to the ground, and for that you need to close distance and clinch, or time your doble leg. You certainly do not need a trillón hours of td training if you are aiming for SD, i think most efficient td for SD is body lock>trip, it’s quite easy to do. But it is necessary to train once in a while, specially white belts and blue belts...
     
  11. Mablung Yellow Belt

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    Advance warning, I've drifted some from the OP's question, but I do have the experience he wants.

    I've been training since 1999, have moved around the country a bit, and have trained at lots of places. I've done sport, MMA-centered stuff, and recently spent some years at a GJJ place. I'm not convinced that most GJJ guys will actually handle themselves any better than someone who trains anywhere else. Staying calm and knowing how to use your body (and your opponent's) goes a long way towards being safe, instead of specific "self-defense" techniques. Going beyond that, what I think that I'm seeing in the GJJ world is the very thing that we all used to make fun of: lots of kata-like drills, deference to a picture on the wall, and lots of excuses if anyone gets beat by something that's not in Helio's "Master Text." In my experience from a few GJJ schools, you will often hear something along the lines of, "Well yeah, you're able to hit me during this drill, but an unskilled person wouldn't be able to." I want my stuff to have a chance to work on everyone, not just unskilled guys.

    I've trained with a number of R. Gracies, and the Renzo quote above is apt. You'll find lots of tough GJJ guys that will impress on the mat, and I suspect in a self-defense situation (though like I said, I'm unconvinced that it's actually any better than what the rest of us are doing), but by the very name of GJJ, they have painted themselves into a corner, I think. My experience is that if Helio didn't do it, they're generally not going to be doing it. Renzo, like lots of us, adopts new best practices when they are offered to him.

    For the last year or two I've been thinking about it like this: Imagine watching footage of a particular sport from the '70s, and watching footage of that same sport today. The old stuff absolutely works, it was using best practices at the time, and there is a technical proficiency and beauty to it. However, we've moved on, adopted new best practices, and are learning new stuff all the time.

    Apologies for ranting!

    tl/dr: Longtime practitioner with experience at many places thinks that GJJ is fine for self-defense, but everyone else who trains will be just as fine.
     
  12. SandisLL Brown Belt

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    It depends from opponent, I think.
    Yes, the problem isn't even what art you practice.

    If you undervalue opponent- assiliant, you might end day in morque.
    There isn't place for illusions in real life.
    ----
    If you teach at least defense from striking / kicks and stand up grappling & throws in depth, I don't mind even if any belt isn't awarded.
    -
    Yes, I completely agree with you. :)

    No.
    I think you can be trained enough long and do have enough experience to be able….
    to take Your average opponent on the ground and You still after this remain be able maintain stand up position if YOU wish.
    &
    Stand up : strike defense and standup grappling, kuzushi and throws….
    -
    I don't care how name of style or art is called, main criteria for me is: does it work against completely resisting uke ?
     
  13. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    Im approaching this from the Bjj fighting point of view, a 1 v1 scenario, not in a brawl or in a “sd” situación where you don’t know how many people are you going to fight, that scenario imho is silly to train for, unless you have a very good pair of hands and size, you’ll get fucked up.

    So, my biggest concern is how to take the fight to the ground, because I’m training for 1 v 1, training a white belt to do a hip throw is way More riskier and takes more than a simple foot stomp clinch bodyclinch trip... and you can do it to all size person..
     
  14. CFGroup Purple Belt

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    Asked this GJJ guy at work how his training was going Friday. He says he's training for his Brown Belt.
    I'm like "So how many comp wins do you need for promotion"
    He gets this weird tough guy look on his face and says "I don't need to compete because I roll with the guys who compete and..." Shit I can't remember the exact words something like "...the other guys competing would get hurt by me" That basic message.

    I was like "What ever dude" and just calmly gazed at him till he walked away.

    Truth be told I haven't competed since 2011 due to injury, but I got up at 5am did my 3 mile runs made it to the club every chance it was open all spring, did all the summer/fall comps to promote and a test, so to hear that excuse made me think WTF how many stories from GJJ/BJJ like that are out there? I get it's an evolving "sport" but my old adage still stands 85% of training on the feet where we spend the majority of our time and for me 15% grudgingly rolling around on the mats or don't give me that tough guy look out in the world.
     
  15. SandisLL Brown Belt

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    I think that isn't silly, however yes, to do street stuff isn't advisable.
    Even if you will won this game, problems after this isn't worth it.

    Yes, I had stuff when I fucked up two guys in row, despite they attacked without any notice.
    Still, I had also stuff, when for example 1 vs 1 turned into 1 vs 2 and second guy almost beated all shit out of me. I don't have any doubts, that if I was on the ground when he too started to beat me, he had better chances finish me.
    If he didn't had brakes to beat someone from behind, I don't think that he then had any brakes kick me if I was on the ground too or gnp me.
    Ofc I'm not any kind of terminator and had also lost some pretty honest 1 vs 1 games like smokers and not only.

    Yes, I think for SD is advisable to think that in any moment you might have not just 1 but 2 or more assiliants if first assiliant failed with initial attack.
     
  16. shunyata Silver Belt

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    But the clinch to hip throw to scarf hold is money.
     
  17. BJJ_Rage Gold Belt

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    yeah but a hip throw is harder to perform, it takes more time to develop and whine someone is trying to take your head off many things could go wrong...if you land the throw though is game over.
     
  18. shunyata Silver Belt

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    It's all relative, getting any good at shots can be hard too and one's head is more protected from punches throwing off the clinch compared to shooting in with a non expert shot. But you want to get those white belts good at falling and sprawling either way.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2020
  19. Estebanantonio2020 White Belt

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    I leave for like 6 years come back and many of the same discussions. Gjj vs bjj vs wrestling vs judo. I know probably new people but uh.... Hey what ever happened to that guy with the hilarious stories sitcharoo or something like that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  20. StanClarker Banned Banned

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    Ya know this topic, of self defense is on everyone's minds @ my Judo dojo. While we are training a sport-like or modified version of the ancient Jiu Jitsu's, we all know the practical application is for self defense... the possibility of being faced with using Judo for that purpose.

    What you have described is something, a tactic right out of the first block of throws, and holds. It's like a patented approach. It's interesting that you refer to the 'clinch' though, because that is a Muay Thai, BJJ or GJJ term... no anywhere in Judo. I (we) don't think of Judo as having or using the 'clinch.'

    Most interesting thread.<Gordonhat>
     

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