going vegan or vegetarian!!!

[Sledge Hammer]

Oh, and yes - you are right in regards to the deforestation. It's destroying this planet as well. I know a lot of the deforestation is to make room for more livestock.

Brazil is the world's second-largest soy producer. Isn't the deforestation in the Amazon rainforest due to make room for more soy beans?

 

[noise666]

Brazil is the world's second-largest soy producer. Isn't the deforestation in the Amazon rainforest due to make room for more soy beans?

Definitely. Like I said, deforestation is for many reasons. That being said, if they are going to create land for food, getting the most food possible out of that land is probably a better idea.

 

[blanko]

aren't there better ways to use the land than soy?

 

[Sinister]

KK - I couldn't agree more man! You got something from my posts that basically said I'm more enlightened than the next person?

Nah not at all. I was stating my discontent with the average cause whore, but not attempting to include you with them.

 

[noise666]

Nah not at all. I was stating my discontent with the average cause whore, but not attempting to include you with them.

Right on. 9 years ago, I would have probably considered myself in the group you're referring to, ha! But 11 years into being vegan now, I've changed quite a lot about myself. That's just me, I'm always making different challenges for myself.

 

[Sledge Hammer]

that depends on how you define better.

 

[noise666]

aren't there better ways to use the land than soy?

Definitely - other crops, etc. That being said, in regards to the land use, the main point is that a mainly pure vegetarian diet will feed the world much more than a meat centered diet. An interesting quote I read:

"the populations potentially supported by the 1992 food supply on different diets:

* Almost purely vegetarian diet --> 6.3 billion people
* 15% of calories from animal products --> 4.2 billion people
* 25% of calories from animal products --> 3.2 billion people
"

Source: The State of World Hunger, by Peter Uvin of the Brown University World Hunger Program

I'll try to find this other statistic I read about a year a go about the use of 1 Acre of land and what it can potentially provide us in regards to food. It compares how much beef can be produced versus other crops. It was pretty interesting if I remember correctly. I'll look for it.

 

[Kyryllo]

This vegan/vegetarian hype came up around the 60s, there were several studies made that showed that a vegan/vegetarian diet brought a vast improvement in the life span and health. Unfortunatly all these studies were invalid and unpresentative by scientific standarts, they just took let's say 1000 veetarians and 1000 meat eaters and researched their state of health. What's wrong with that you miht think, they did not consider the lifestyle beyond the diet as important. They just took the vegetarians and meat eaters, but if you look at the ways of life of the most vegetarians then you notice that the vast majority of them cares about their health, they do doctor checkups, work out regulary and pay attention to their diet, in short people that are concerned with their well being and state of health. But on the other hand the group of meat eaters was just the rest, the most of them were just people that don't care for the diet or their health, since it is the higher proportion of people obviosly the meat eaters that work out, go to checkups, look after their diet were outnumbered and couldn'T affect the study. Newer controlled studies have shown that a clean meat diet>vegan/vegetarian diet.

There's no logical reasons to become a vegetarian, only personal.

 

[aphexish**]

Your accusation of my "argument" being fallacious is a misunderstanding on your part. I never indicated that Athletes not utilizing a vegetarian/vegan diet was a causation of inefficiency, rather an effect thereof. Most elite level Professional Athletes utilize the services of Dieticians and Nutritionists, not to mention countless medical professionals, and I'm pretty positive they're more knowledgable on the subject than someone who simply wants to believe they might be incorrect at baseline.

It's not impossible to be an Athlete without eating meat specifically, but is it going to be more difficult? Sure. Because there just aren't that many sources of COMPLETE proteins in single instances of other foods, without increasing carb intake significantly. Animal sources provide the best amino profiles per serving, with the least amount of carbohydrates. Not to mention that organic meat provides the often ignored healthy fats as well.

I have been a vegetarian all my life. I agree, that finding complete sources of protein from non -animal sources (including eggs and dairy), is difficult. Especially when when one does not wish to consume exuberant amounts of soy based products.

If allowed to eat dairy, and/or eggs, eggs especially, the protein debate is non-existent. I don't know much about a healthy non-vegetarian diet, because it doesn't concern me. Also the claim that if a vegetarian diet was/is superior to a meat eating diet then 25% athletes would adopt a vegetarian diet is erroneous.

 

[Sinister]

I never said 25%. My statement was that if a diet (vegetarian/vegan or otherwise) is superior then it'd be adapted by more of the athletic community. I don't see how that's erroneous, as mentioned before most successful Professional Athletes utilize the help of the Medical and Scientific Communities for their Nutritional needs, as their success is highly dependent on this. Saying they'd be ignorant for whatever reason to the best means of fueling the body would be likened to saying racing teams are ignorant to the best ways to fuel automobiles.

 

[AZ_MMA]

This vegan/vegetarian hype came up around the 60s, there were several studies made that showed that a vegan/vegetarian diet brought a vast improvement in the life span and health. Unfortunatly all these studies were invalid and unpresentative by scientific standarts, they just took let's say 1000 veetarians and 1000 meat eaters and researched their state of health. What's wrong with that you miht think, they did not consider the lifestyle beyond the diet as important. They just took the vegetarians and meat eaters, but if you look at the ways of life of the most vegetarians then you notice that the vast majority of them cares about their health, they do doctor checkups, work out regulary and pay attention to their diet, in short people that are concerned with their well being and state of health. But on the other hand the group of meat eaters was just the rest, the most of them were just people that don't care for the diet or their health, since it is the higher proportion of people obviosly the meat eaters that work out, go to checkups, look after their diet were outnumbered and couldn'T affect the study. Newer controlled studies have shown that a clean meat diet>vegan/vegetarian diet.

There's no logical reasons to become a vegetarian, only personal.

Not true. The most logical reason to become vegetarian was stated earlier on this board; the energy and resources that are committed to producing meat are very innefficient and are will very quickly become unsustainable. I would argue that if everyone only used logic to make this decision, that everyone would be vegetarian. But we aren't Spock, so things other than logic come into our decision making.

 

[aphexish**]

I never said 25%. My statement was that if a diet (vegetarian/vegan or otherwise) is superior then it'd be adapted by more of the athletic community. I don't see how that's erroneous, as mentioned before most successful Professional Athletes utilize the help of the Medical and Scientific Communities for their Nutritional needs, as their success is highly dependent on this. Saying they'd be ignorant for whatever reason to the best means of fueling the body would be likened to saying racing teams are ignorant to the best ways to fuel automobiles.

All I am saying is a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet can be as equally effective as a meat eating diet. Obviously most athletes would never chose a lacto-ova vegeterian diet.

 

[Darph]

you try to find foods that are filling and satisfying, which are often high calorie and fatty (pizza, soda, french fries are all vegetarian, but not vegan).

When I went vegetarian I put on 40 pounds; vegetarian does not equal healthy.

You might be legally retarded.

How about this: Eat fresh, raw veggies. Not pizza and French fries?

Anyways, I think vegetarian is ok for cutting weight, just make sure you keep your protein intake up with Whey.

 

[Kyryllo]

Not true. The most logical reason to become vegetarian was stated earlier on this board; the energy and resources that are committed to producing meat are very innefficient and are will very quickly become unsustainable. I would argue that if everyone only used logic to make this decision, that everyone would be vegetarian. But we aren't Spock, so things other than logic come into our decision making.

My comment was towards health issues. And your logic is about making preferences and measuring pros and cons or morality which is again a personal issue.

 

[Sinister]

All I am saying is a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet can be as equally effective as a meat eating diet.

I'd love to see this proven scientifically. And I'm not being sarcastic.

 

[KPB]

I'd love to see this proven scientifically. And I'm not being sarcastic.

What would scientific proof of this look like to you (I'm not being sarcastic either)?

 

[Sinister]

A clinical study done with Athletes to compare the efficacy of an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet versus one that contains meat, where the improvements in athletic performance were equal.

 

[Kyryllo]

A clinical study done with Athletes to compare the efficacy of an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet versus one that contains meat, where the improvements in athletic performance were equal.

The library of my Uni is the world's largest sports related library in the world, I'll look around, if there was something done in that direction, they might have it or being able to get it.

 

[Sinister]

Word, a man who can get results!

 

[Kyryllo]

Kabuki, I just searched for "ovo lacto" in the library catalog and found two studies, one is from 1993 about physical performance of vegans, ovo.lagto vegetarians and normal diet, second is from 1987 it is comparison of conventional sports diet and ovo lacto vegy diet in ultra long run competitions.

There might be more studies if I search better, I'll pick the books up tomorrow and pm you the results if you like.